Start Bench

[SpeedyBull]

Wow this whole post is out of control. We lost a game we were expected to lose and not nearly as bad as just about every professional thought we should have. 

I think everyone can agree we do not have a Peyton manning at QB that is eligible on the team. Will that change next year? who knows but this year we have 2 QB options that are only marginally separated. 

The first half of the FSU game was amazing and I had real hope for our BULLS. That is hands down better than anything we have seen in the last 3 years. FFS be excited for that! This team still needs more time.

The turning point in that game for me was the BS targeting call, not the QB play.

For those calling to play both QB's how will that help? No rhythm for the team. Opposing Defense will have a good idea if it is a passing or running play depending on who is in at QB (unless you want to screw with them by playing to each QB's weaknesses) 

Either QB would have had about the same success, I think the mentality of QF is the difference maker of why he got the start and was kept in the game. I didn't see him giving up to a team that clearly was bringing it with superior athletes.

Bench will help our team when he can, calm down. All the Players, All the Staff want us to win. If couch coaches were really that great we would not be paying millions to have professionals figure out what to do.

CWT is not getting a contract extension yet calm down, we have a competent AD.  There is also no reason to call for CWT's head yet. Our best play as a team is to continue to grow and develop this year. Evaluate the coaching after the season. There have been no critical coaching blunders yet. We dominated the game we were supposed to dominate (in fact I thought that was uglier than our loss to fsu) and we lost the game we were supposed to lose and we looked pretty solid doing so. 

There is hope. This will be a fun Year. We will not be making a run for the NCAA tournament, we will not be a dumpster fire either. Enjoy. 

[Bulls1181]

^^^^^ He is way too positive for this board!

[Bullshiznitz]

 

 

 

A 47% career completion percentage would disagree with this assessment.  

 

Again all I am concerned with at this point is what his recent history says and who is the right QB for the situation. Its clear that both players have some skills the other doesn't. If we need to pass the ball to win the game, and you truly think QF is better than SB, then all we can do is disagree.

 

 

You keep waving the "just the facts" flag, but you've ignored the fact that they are fairly close in passing stats over the window you selected, with Flowers having a huge edge running the ball. I don't think either of these guys are very good (as they stand now), but your own numbers don't bear out your position.

 

It's fine to hold an opinion but it just looks foolish to pretend like it's based on hard evidence.

 

 

Facts are facts. The fact is that was my response to criticism of SB being a turnover machine that cant cut it at QB. I will continue to wave the "flag of facts"  proudly. Apparently you do not like that and have resorted to calling someone else foolish...so be it. I will continue refuting factually incorrect assessments with facts.

 

Last three games for both players

 

QF

OPP RESULT CMP ATT YDS CMP% LNG TD INT RAT

@SMU W 14-13 6 15 105 40.0 34 0 0 98.8

FAMU W 51-3 12 16 141 75.0 45 2 1 177.8

FSU L 34-14 12 24 125 50.0 71 2 1 112.9

 

SB

Mem L 31-20 6 11 57 54.5 17 1 0 128.1

UCF L 16-0 7 13 88 53.8 27 0 0 110.7

FAMU W 51-3 8 10 140 80.0 62 1 0 230.6

 

QF

Avg CMP%: 55%

TD Ratio: 2/1

Avg RAT:  129.83

 

SB

Avg CMP%: 62.7% 

TD Ratio: 2/0

Avg RAT:  156.67 

 

 

You're continued cherry picking is amusing.  Taking a look at your original cherry pick, since the middle of last year (using the stats correctly, which is as a whole and not averages): 

 

Bench 42/73  57.5%  4TD 1 INT 15RA  -4yds

Flowers 31/56  55.3%  4TD 2 INT 28RA  131yds

 

And thats cherry picking to make Bench look as good as possible, and theres still basically no difference between them as a passer (all this while ignoring that most of Bench stats were accumulated during garbage time, and that Bench accumulated those stats during junior/senior years compared to freshman/sophomore years).  

 

You want some other fun cherry picked but factual stats: 

 

FACT#1   Bench has been given 4 chances at USF to show his stuff (QB'ing most/all of the game with 20+ pass attempts).  In those 4 games (FAU, Miami, Maryland, Houston): 

 

47/111  42% completion percentage  2TD  4 INT         RA 30 RYDS -30         Avg Offensive Pts/Game:  9.3    QB Rating: 88.5

 

FACT#2    # of comeback wins by Bench = 0

                 This is where I really am baffled at the argument that if we need to comeback, Bench is the guy to do it.   Bench has had 4 opportunities here to lead a comeback:

                 2013  Louisville, came in late 2Q down 17-3, left late 4Q with USF down 34-3   =  difference  -17 pts

                 2014  Cincy, came in whole 2nd half with USF down 20-3, finished game with USF down 34-17   =  difference 0 pts

                 2014  Memphis, came in with 5 min left in game with USF down 31-13, finished game down 31-20 = difference +7pts

                 2014  UCF, came in with 9 min left in game with USF down 16-0, finished game down 16-0 = difference 0pts

 

So in 4 opportunities, the only time USF even reduced the deficit was in the Memphis game in which he took 4 min with a little over 5 min left in the game to score against a prevent defense.  So where is the rational coming from Bench being some comeback king? 

 

FACT#3    Career stats:  

                 Bench 83/174  47.7% comp perc  6TD 5INT  Career QB Rating: 108.5  44RA  -25RYDS    1 sack/10.2 PA

                 Flowers   32/60  53.3% comp perc   4TD  4INT   Career QB Rating:  114.8    34RA   174RYDS    1 sack/20 PA

 

I realize that Flowers isn't a great QB.  But he's a sophomore learning in a system almost designed exactly for him.   He's shown improvement from last year, and will no doubt continue to improve as the season goes on.   His passing skills are already basically on par with Bench, and his ability to avoid the sack while also giving you a running threat in my mind makes this a no brainer. There is absolutely nothing in Bench's career as a starter or reliever that point to him being better suited than Flowers for either scenario.   Unless Flowers somehow regresses, or gets injured, there's no reason for Bench to be put in there. 

[Bull-Hornz]

 

 

 

 

A 47% career completion percentage would disagree with this assessment.  

 

Again all I am concerned with at this point is what his recent history says and who is the right QB for the situation. Its clear that both players have some skills the other doesn't. If we need to pass the ball to win the game, and you truly think QF is better than SB, then all we can do is disagree.

 

 

You keep waving the "just the facts" flag, but you've ignored the fact that they are fairly close in passing stats over the window you selected, with Flowers having a huge edge running the ball. I don't think either of these guys are very good (as they stand now), but your own numbers don't bear out your position.

 

It's fine to hold an opinion but it just looks foolish to pretend like it's based on hard evidence.

 

 

Facts are facts. The fact is that was my response to criticism of SB being a turnover machine that cant cut it at QB. I will continue to wave the "flag of facts"  proudly. Apparently you do not like that and have resorted to calling someone else foolish...so be it. I will continue refuting factually incorrect assessments with facts.

 

Last three games for both players

 

QF

OPP RESULT CMP ATT YDS CMP% LNG TD INT RAT

@SMU W 14-13 6 15 105 40.0 34 0 0 98.8

FAMU W 51-3 12 16 141 75.0 45 2 1 177.8

FSU L 34-14 12 24 125 50.0 71 2 1 112.9

 

SB

Mem L 31-20 6 11 57 54.5 17 1 0 128.1

UCF L 16-0 7 13 88 53.8 27 0 0 110.7

FAMU W 51-3 8 10 140 80.0 62 1 0 230.6

 

QF

Avg CMP%: 55%

TD Ratio: 2/1

Avg RAT:  129.83

 

SB

Avg CMP%: 62.7% 

TD Ratio: 2/0

Avg RAT:  156.67 

 

 

You're continued cherry picking is amusing.  Taking a look at your original cherry pick, since the middle of last year (using the stats correctly, which is as a whole and not averages): 

 

Bench 42/73  57.5%  4TD 1 INT 15RA  -4yds

Flowers 31/56  55.3%  4TD 2 INT 28RA  131yds

 

And thats cherry picking to make Bench look as good as possible, and theres still basically no difference between them as a passer (all this while ignoring that most of Bench stats were accumulated during garbage time, and that Bench accumulated those stats during junior/senior years compared to freshman/sophomore years).  

 

You want some other fun cherry picked but factual stats: 

 

FACT#1   Bench has been given 4 chances at USF to show his stuff (QB'ing most/all of the game with 20+ pass attempts).  In those 4 games (FAU, Miami, Maryland, Houston): 

 

47/111  42% completion percentage  2TD  4 INT         RA 30 RYDS -30         Avg Offensive Pts/Game:  9.3    QB Rating: 88.5

 

FACT#2    # of comeback wins by Bench = 0

                 This is where I really am baffled at the argument that if we need to comeback, Bench is the guy to do it.   Bench has had 4 opportunities here to lead a comeback:

                 2013  Louisville, came in late 2Q down 17-3, left late 4Q with USF down 34-3   =  difference  -17 pts

                 2014  Cincy, came in whole 2nd half with USF down 20-3, finished game with USF down 34-17   =  difference 0 pts

                 2014  Memphis, came in with 5 min left in game with USF down 31-13, finished game down 31-20 = difference +7pts

                 2014  UCF, came in with 9 min left in game with USF down 16-0, finished game down 16-0 = difference 0pts

 

So in 4 opportunities, the only time USF even reduced the deficit was in the Memphis game in which he took 4 min with a little over 5 min left in the game to score against a prevent defense.  So where is the rational coming from Bench being some comeback king? 

 

FACT#3    Career stats:  

                 Bench 83/174  47.7% comp perc  6TD 5INT  Career QB Rating: 108.5  44RA  -25RYDS    1 sack/10.2 PA

                 Flowers   32/60  53.3% comp perc   4TD  4INT   Career QB Rating:  114.8    34RA   174RYDS    1 sack/20 PA

 

I realize that Flowers isn't a great QB.  But he's a sophomore learning in a system almost designed exactly for him.   He's shown improvement from last year, and will no doubt continue to improve as the season goes on.   His passing skills are already basically on par with Bench, and his ability to avoid the sack while also giving you a running threat in my mind makes this a no brainer. There is absolutely nothing in Bench's career as a starter or reliever that point to him being better suited than Flowers for either scenario.   Unless Flowers somehow regresses, or gets injured, there's no reason for Bench to be put in there. 

 

How is the last MOST RECENT three games they each played cherry picking for data related to how they play NOW, pls enlighten. I would have went back 5 games but QF only had one other game in the second half of the season where he threw one pass for -1 yrds which I don't think is fair to him.

 

I just want the best QB in the right situation NOW. NOT what they did 3 years ago 

 

Anyhow its clear this is getting to the point of diminishing returns so I am done. I hope each of them does well in whatever opportunities they are given.

 

Peace!        

Edited September 15, 2015 by Bull-Hornz

[RandyGator]

No. Flowers should start and Bench should come in if he struggles. So far QF has thrown for 4 TDs in two games. This offense is predicated on running the ball and hitting the opponent with long passes. That offense runs best with QF leading the team.

Let's see how it works vs a Maryland before we start asking for replacement in starters.

Agreeing waiting to Maryland, but any offense predicated on running the ball and hitting the long ball is obsolete

+100

How about something new ... Passes over the middle, if Flowers can't do it, try Bench

Edited September 15, 2015 by RandyGator

[usfbullrider]

Bull Hornz good stuff thanks. QF supporters are very defensive it seems regarding certain facts. None of this is going to change anyone's mind but some of us will still be here at the end of the season to see how this mess unfolds, some will not.

[snarling Bull]

 

 

 

 

 

 

A 47% career completion percentage would disagree with this assessment.

Again all I am concerned with at this point is what his recent history says and who is the right QB for the situation. Its clear that both players have some skills the other doesn't. If we need to pass the ball to win the game, and you truly think QF is better than SB, then all we can do is disagree.

 

You keep waving the "just the facts" flag, but you've ignored the fact that they are fairly close in passing stats over the window you selected, with Flowers having a huge edge running the ball. I don't think either of these guys are very good (as they stand now), but your own numbers don't bear out your position.

It's fine to hold an opinion but it just looks foolish to pretend like it's based on hard evidence.

 

Facts are facts. The fact is that was my response to criticism of SB being a turnover machine that cant cut it at QB. I will continue to wave the "flag of facts" proudly. Apparently you do not like that and have resorted to calling someone else foolish...so be it. I will continue refuting factually incorrect assessments with facts.

Last three games for both players

QF

OPP RESULT CMP ATT YDS CMP% LNG TD INT RAT

@SMU W 14-13 6 15 105 40.0 34 0 0 98.8

FAMU W 51-3 12 16 141 75.0 45 2 1 177.8

FSU L 34-14 12 24 125 50.0 71 2 1 112.9

SB

Mem L 31-20 6 11 57 54.5 17 1 0 128.1

UCF L 16-0 7 13 88 53.8 27 0 0 110.7

FAMU W 51-3 8 10 140 80.0 62 1 0 230.6

QF

Avg CMP%: 55%

TD Ratio: 2/1

Avg RAT: 129.83

SB

Avg CMP%: 62.7%

TD Ratio: 2/0

Avg RAT: 156.67

 

you forgot rushing stats

7 carries 9 yards and 1 TD for Bench 1.3 ypc

25 carries 134 yards and 1 TD for flowers 5.4 ypc

 

The rushing stats just tell me what many not wearing green and goggles say and that is that QF. Is a running back

 

our top 3 QBs in our history all have over 1,000 yards rushing for their careers(2 of them over 2,000) .

 

But they could throw the ball to someone other than a running back out of the backfield

[Who'sYourData?]

Just want to point out for those saying a two QB system wouldn't work, Steve Spurrier had pretty good success with a three QB system including the famous Noah Brindise.

[NCBull]

Unfortunately I can't say the same...at least in this thread I have mostly seen people asking to see Bench making mostly logical arguements while the QF as starter supporters have been making excuses...

Again I am not against QF playing or even starting next game, I am just not being dogmatic about it. It's not one or the other, one has skill set the other doesn't. Just play the QB that is best suited for us to win. If MD has a poor secondary, then we should be all calling for SB so we can take advantage of that matchup.

QF has started 3 games. we have won 2 of them. the one loss was to a top ten team on the road. no one is arguing he is a heisman contender.

no one is dogmatic. Bench has appeared in 14 games for us. He is 3-11. The wins were FAMU, Western Carolina (1-1 for 10 yards) and Cincy (1-1 for 7 yards). last year he would have ranked #106 in the country for passer ranking.

you guys act like we have joe montana on the bench.

I have said that Bench should be put into the game if we are down by more than 2 TDs in the 4th quarter otherwise i believe flowers gives us a better chance. he doesn't get sacked as much , he takes care of the ball better, and is a better runner.

LOL...I am not sure you watched last season at all but if it were up to QF, the only win QF would have would be against FAMU. Now that IS what I call using number to support a foregone conclusion.

Also I believe most of us are not advocating QF not play just be used in the right situations. Conversely the other side is advocating SB not play at all...which seems more reasonable? I wonder....

Who has said that Bench shouldn't play? He should if we are forced into a passing situation dictated by game flow. otherwise it should be Flowers.

Those stats you want to look at for Bench were in garbage time. His only 2 good games were Cincy and maybe memphis. They came in the 4th quarter when we were down 27-3 against Cincy and 31-13 against memphis. 2 of those 3 TDs were the last drive of the game and were meaningless.

Garbage Time:

Listen...I am not arguing whether or not those came against good teams, bad teams, "non-garbage" or garbage time etc etc...I am saying he has tools that QF does not, which is being able to execute most throws we need from a QB which is an argument to use SB and are not meaningless.

Using the right QB at the right time:

Welcome to the fray

A 47% career completion percentage would disagree with this assessment.

LOL... everyone griped and moaned that Taggart needed to settle on a QB. In year three he did... now everyone wants him to change because it's not the guy they like. Like they know more than the coaching staff. I find that hilarious.

LIKE has nothing to do with it, only winning. If your starting QB can't win winnable games, he should be replaced. Anyone who says FSU wasn't winnable is giving them far too much credit.

Yes, how dare they give credit to a team who's 29-1 over their last 30 games, currently ranked 9th in the nation, with arguably the best RB in the nation, in a game they were favored by 28.5 pts in their own house. I mean if our sophomore starting QB in his 3rd start ever is incapable of leading this team to the 35+ points that would have been needed to beat the 9th ranked team in the nation on the road, then how can anyone rationally not reach the conclusion that we absolutely need to put in our senior career backup QB, with an impressive 47% completion percentage in his career who has heroically lead his team to a 1-9 record in games he had more than 10 pass attempts in.

I mean how can anyone logically and objectively not reach that conclusion...

You own this thread sir--congratulations!

[GaUSFBull]

That baby looks like he's taking a shiz, which is what this thread has become.