Mike Leach at 2-4 calls out heart of seniors, starts underclassmen.

[Bull Martin]

Yeah, if you've watched the team for years as most people on here have, there is a difference that you can see with your eyes. It's pretty much been pointed out by everyone except maybe the coaching staff.

I'm not saying let's have a Tim Tebow promise or anything dramatic, but maybe some leaders need to emerge if the motivation isn't coming from what the coaches are saying?

they kind of tried that a couple of times with the players only meetings-0-- there is only so much they can do on their own.

this is on the coaches primarily

I guess it is also possible that our team is not quite as talented as we have led ourselves to believe

Come on MikeG, you don't believe for a second that this team is less talented than Ball State and Temple. Do you?

Where's the proof to the contrary?

O.K. now we're getting somewhere. So the last recruiting class of Leavitt, ranked near the top 25 in the nation, is less talented than Ball State and Temple. I get it Bull Martin. So that means that Skip Holtz has recruited QB's, DE's, OL's, LB's, CB's, RB's, TE's, WR's, etal that are all less talented than those guys since they haven't moved many of those seniors out of the starter rolls. Where are we headed then Bull Martin? Do you actually attend games, travel, donate, etc. and if so are you excited about where we're at and where we're headed? You seem to be quite the contrarian so I'll give you the podium to vocalize your super fandom and how Skip Holtz with his less talented recruits can help right the sinking USS Bulls in future years. Take it away Bull Martin.

Oh man. You got a lot out of those 6 words that I typed.

If we lose to Ball State and Temple, it's hard to argue that our team is more talented. It's not like USF turned the ball over 6 times or they used trick plays to beat us with luck. They lined up and played toe to toe and won the games strait up.

[Gismo]

Yeah, if you've watched the team for years as most people on here have, there is a difference that you can see with your eyes. It's pretty much been pointed out by everyone except maybe the coaching staff.

I'm not saying let's have a Tim Tebow promise or anything dramatic, but maybe some leaders need to emerge if the motivation isn't coming from what the coaches are saying?

they kind of tried that a couple of times with the players only meetings-0-- there is only so much they can do on their own.

this is on the coaches primarily

I guess it is also possible that our team is not quite as talented as we have led ourselves to believe

Come on MikeG, you don't believe for a second that this team is less talented than Ball State and Temple. Do you?

Where's the proof to the contrary?

O.K. now we're getting somewhere. So the last recruiting class of Leavitt, ranked near the top 25 in the nation, is less talented than Ball State and Temple. I get it Bull Martin. So that means that Skip Holtz has recruited QB's, DE's, OL's, LB's, CB's, RB's, TE's, WR's, etal that are all less talented than those guys since they haven't moved many of those seniors out of the starter rolls. Where are we headed then Bull Martin? Do you actually attend games, travel, donate, etc. and if so are you excited about where we're at and where we're headed? You seem to be quite the contrarian so I'll give you the podium to vocalize your super fandom and how Skip Holtz with his less talented recruits can help right the sinking USS Bulls in future years. Take it away Bull Martin.

Oh man. You got a lot out of those 6 words that I typed.

If we lose to Ball State and Temple, it's hard to argue that our team is more talented. It's not like USF turned the ball over 6 times or they used trick plays to beat us with luck. They lined up and played toe to toe and won the games strait up.

who is responsible for the lack of "talent"

[Orlando Bull]

Leach needs larger equipment shed...

[MikeG]

Yeah, if you've watched the team for years as most people on here have, there is a difference that you can see with your eyes. It's pretty much been pointed out by everyone except maybe the coaching staff.

I'm not saying let's have a Tim Tebow promise or anything dramatic, but maybe some leaders need to emerge if the motivation isn't coming from what the coaches are saying?

they kind of tried that a couple of times with the players only meetings-0-- there is only so much they can do on their own.

this is on the coaches primarily

I guess it is also possible that our team is not quite as talented as we have led ourselves to believe

Come on MikeG, you don't believe for a second that this team is less talented than Ball State and Temple. Do you?

that is not what I said -- I said they may be less talented than we think they should be

recruiting rankings are an indicator, not a guarantee. Some kids plateau in HS-- some get better. We used to get the kids who had more room to grow and then did. Now we seem to get the flashy kids who just sort of stagnate.

Now as far as this group is concerned-- I think they are simply underperforming. But the catch is that hardly any of Holtz recruits are breaking through. I cannot recall a Leavitt team where younger guys didn't beat out older guys regularly. That to me says progress in recruiting and a growing program. It seems like a simple concept the way i lay this out but it sort of makes sense if you ruminate on it some.

[Bulls1181]

Yeah, if you've watched the team for years as most people on here have, there is a difference that you can see with your eyes. It's pretty much been pointed out by everyone except maybe the coaching staff.

I'm not saying let's have a Tim Tebow promise or anything dramatic, but maybe some leaders need to emerge if the motivation isn't coming from what the coaches are saying?

they kind of tried that a couple of times with the players only meetings-0-- there is only so much they can do on their own.

this is on the coaches primarily

I guess it is also possible that our team is not quite as talented as we have led ourselves to believe

Come on MikeG, you don't believe for a second that this team is less talented than Ball State and Temple. Do you?

that is not what I said -- I said they may be less talented than we think they should be

recruiting rankings are an indicator, not a guarantee. Some kids plateau in HS-- some get better. We used to get the kids who had more room to grow and then did. Now we seem to get the flashy kids who just sort of stagnate.

Now as far as this group is concerned-- I think they are simply underperforming. But the catch is that hardly any of Holtz recruits are breaking through. I cannot recall a Leavitt team where younger guys didn't beat out older guys regularly. That to me says progress in recruiting and a growing program. It seems like a simple concept the way i lay this out but it sort of makes sense if you ruminate on it some.

Maybe Skip's biggest mistake was staying loyal to the Seniors and not giving the underclassmen an opportunity to play...Either way we are in a middle of a sh1t storm. Again I still think it is a combination of factors that are killing this team. Plenty of blame can be thrown around, hopefully Skip can find a combination that works for us.

[MikeG]

Yeah, if you've watched the team for years as most people on here have, there is a difference that you can see with your eyes. It's pretty much been pointed out by everyone except maybe the coaching staff.

I'm not saying let's have a Tim Tebow promise or anything dramatic, but maybe some leaders need to emerge if the motivation isn't coming from what the coaches are saying?

they kind of tried that a couple of times with the players only meetings-0-- there is only so much they can do on their own.

this is on the coaches primarily

I guess it is also possible that our team is not quite as talented as we have led ourselves to believe

Come on MikeG, you don't believe for a second that this team is less talented than Ball State and Temple. Do you?

that is not what I said -- I said they may be less talented than we think they should be

recruiting rankings are an indicator, not a guarantee. Some kids plateau in HS-- some get better. We used to get the kids who had more room to grow and then did. Now we seem to get the flashy kids who just sort of stagnate.

Now as far as this group is concerned-- I think they are simply underperforming. But the catch is that hardly any of Holtz recruits are breaking through. I cannot recall a Leavitt team where younger guys didn't beat out older guys regularly. That to me says progress in recruiting and a growing program. It seems like a simple concept the way i lay this out but it sort of makes sense if you ruminate on it some.

Maybe Skip's biggest mistake was staying loyal to the Seniors and not giving the underclassmen an opportunity to play...Either way we are in a middle of a sh1t storm. Again I still think it is a combination of factors that are killing this team. Plenty of blame can be thrown around, hopefully Skip can find a combination that works for us.

at what point did you ever hear him say he was being loyal to the seniors?

no coach worth his salt gives a rats bottom what class you are in-- they put the best players on the field period.

[cmhatter]

Yeah, if you've watched the team for years as most people on here have, there is a difference that you can see with your eyes. It's pretty much been pointed out by everyone except maybe the coaching staff.

I'm not saying let's have a Tim Tebow promise or anything dramatic, but maybe some leaders need to emerge if the motivation isn't coming from what the coaches are saying?

they kind of tried that a couple of times with the players only meetings-0-- there is only so much they can do on their own.

this is on the coaches primarily

I guess it is also possible that our team is not quite as talented as we have led ourselves to believe

Come on MikeG, you don't believe for a second that this team is less talented than Ball State and Temple. Do you?

i refuse to believe that we have less talent than those teams.... however, if we were considerably MORE talented.... we would have won the games on raw talent alone.

[USF_Grouper]

Even raw talent requires effort... lots of really smart young adults living with their parents

[Bull Martin]

Yeah, if you've watched the team for years as most people on here have, there is a difference that you can see with your eyes. It's pretty much been pointed out by everyone except maybe the coaching staff.

I'm not saying let's have a Tim Tebow promise or anything dramatic, but maybe some leaders need to emerge if the motivation isn't coming from what the coaches are saying?

they kind of tried that a couple of times with the players only meetings-0-- there is only so much they can do on their own.

this is on the coaches primarily

I guess it is also possible that our team is not quite as talented as we have led ourselves to believe

Come on MikeG, you don't believe for a second that this team is less talented than Ball State and Temple. Do you?

Where's the proof to the contrary?

O.K. now we're getting somewhere. So the last recruiting class of Leavitt, ranked near the top 25 in the nation, is less talented than Ball State and Temple. I get it Bull Martin. So that means that Skip Holtz has recruited QB's, DE's, OL's, LB's, CB's, RB's, TE's, WR's, etal that are all less talented than those guys since they haven't moved many of those seniors out of the starter rolls. Where are we headed then Bull Martin? Do you actually attend games, travel, donate, etc. and if so are you excited about where we're at and where we're headed? You seem to be quite the contrarian so I'll give you the podium to vocalize your super fandom and how Skip Holtz with his less talented recruits can help right the sinking USS Bulls in future years. Take it away Bull Martin.

Oh man. You got a lot out of those 6 words that I typed.

If we lose to Ball State and Temple, it's hard to argue that our team is more talented. It's not like USF turned the ball over 6 times or they used trick plays to beat us with luck. They lined up and played toe to toe and won the games strait up.

who is responsible for the lack of "talent"

Obviously Skip. Which I'm not really sure what the argument here is. If you look in almost any of the other threads, I'm all for canning Skip and hiring Petrino. I've felt that way since we lost to Ball State. I mean after that, it wasn't really surprising that we lost to Temple. Temple is a better program than Ball State.

[hm101]

You mean with the coaches right? I don't think our players want to lose or aren't trying.

Our players are getting called out by media and announcers for looking flat. Playing to the opponent or to the crowd has been a common problem at USF for a while now. I totally disagree that some aren't giving 100%.

I'm not saying benching all seniors is the right move, but I admire Leach for holding players accountable and expecting maximum effort, regardless of class.

You have to agree that some are not giving 100%

Thats what I meant to say. Sorry about the double negative