4th and short.

[BrassBulls12]

2 minutes ago, chapelbull said:

lol, why do you get to decide the "burden of proof" especially for something I didn't say.  It's been pretty well discussed that Saban changed his philosophy on the offense as times they have achanged hence the hiring of OCs that open up the offense.  Kiffin didn't come in and change things without Saban's blessing.   

Strong has had multiple OCs, the questions about his conservatism have remained.  No one has stated that Strong is coaching the offense or calling the plays.

Strawman

How is it strawman? I showed that Sterlin's offense is no different in philosophy, you on the other hand have provided nothing to show your point except you opinion. you made the original statement with no backing and asked me to prove you wrong, that's shifting the burden of proof. 

Edited November 30, 2018 by BrassBulls12

[chapelbull]

2 minutes ago, BrassBulls12 said:

How is it strawman? I showed that Sterlin's offense is no different in philosophy, you on the other hand have provided nothing to show your point except you opinion. you made the original statement with no backing and asked me to prove you wrong, that's shifting the burden of proof. 

It's strawman because you keep going to things that haven't been said.   It's a fact that we took a knee with 21 seconds and 3 timeouts with us down to our "rivals" just shy of midfield.  It's a fact that we punted on 4th and 1 just shy of midfield and down by 2 scores in the 4th quarter.  Those are conservative play calls.  I don't care how many 2 yard outs Gilbert calls in a game.

[BrassBulls12]

2 minutes ago, chapelbull said:

It's strawman because you keep going to things that haven't been said.   It's a fact that we took a knee with 21 seconds and 3 timeouts with us down to our "rivals" just shy of midfield.  It's a fact that we punted on 4th and 1 just shy of midfield and down by 2 scores in the 4th quarter.  Those are conservative play calls.  I don't care how many 2 yard outs Gilbert calls in a game.

Another fact, none of those play calls effects the fact that our offense was abysmal, which greatly effects how you make those play calls.  

What was conservative about the first two fourth and shorts we tried for? Maybe he looked at the third one and said nope, I just don't trust that we can get it based on what i've seen. 

Edited November 30, 2018 by BrassBulls12

[Bull Dozer]

33 minutes ago, BrassBulls12 said:

First of all, way to shift the burden of proof. 

since you asked here is one example. Lane Kiffin at Alabama 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaaf/sec/2014/12/05/college-football-alabama-crimson-tide-offensive-coordinator-lane-kiffin-pace-of-play/19892153/

In 2013, Alabama ran 826 plays in 13 games, the same number Connecticut ran in 12. That total ranked 99th out of 125 FBS teams. This season, through 12 games, Alabama has run 872, the same as Oregon, one of the most prominent and successful fast-paced offensive teams.

The shift is notable for many reasons, including the fact that two years ago Alabama coach Nick Saban questioned the quickening pace of college football, saying, "Is this what we want football to be?" But less than a week after outscoring Auburn to win the SEC West division, Alabama's offense has become a leading practitioner of what he once decried: one that relies as much on speed and tempo as it does pure physicality.

He said (a player on the team) Kiffin's approach was "kind of foreign to a lot of guys at first. I think he knew that. So he was really patient with us."

so the great Nick Saban yielded to his OC and completely went against his very public opposition to the fast paced offense because its what suited his OC. 

You could also look at Play calling, Blake Sims ran the ball twice as much as his predecessor, and his 7 TD that season were more the McCarron had in his four year career. 

You could point out that Kiffin threw more at USC than he did at Alabama, but you have to prove to me how much having Matt Barkley at USC and not having Derrick Henry at USC played a role in that. 

Now looking at Sterlin Gilbert in particular. 

in 2014 Bowling green ran the ball 39.7 times per game and threw 39.1 

In 2015 Tulsa ran the football 45 times per game and threw 37

In 2016 texas ran the ball 49 times per game 39

2017 USf ran the ball over 50 times per game and threw 30 (skewed by QF rushing 190 times) 

2018 USF ran 40 times per game and threw 33 

Stats provided Sports-reference.com

In fact the only season that I can find where a Sterlin Gilbert offense threw more than he ran was his first season at Eastern illinois. 

Conclusion Gilberts run/ pass ratio isn't all that different now than before Strong. He is and for the most part has always been run first. 

Now you wanna look at tempo see what gousfbulls.com has to say 

TAMPA, SEPT. 19, 2018 – USF is poised to become the fastest Florida FBS team to reach 150 program wins and its up-tempo offense wants to produce more big results at Raymond James Stadium in the Bulls' conference opener against East Carolina.

Strong said he’d instruct his offense to slow down enough to “let us drink some Gatorade.”

http://footballscoop.com/news/charlie-strong-fits-like-a-glove-at-south-florida/

Doesn't sound like we are running the slow paced offense that Strong wanted to see

There is also evidence provided by a comment on our very own Mike Stuben's tweet, that suggest that Strong doesn't even interact with the offensive practice....at all.

Why would a coach that is so uninterested in the offensive practice have any influence over the offensive philosophy? 

My conclusion, based on the numbers, he doesn't. the offense is Gilbert's show.  

Fantastic post.  Also defensive minded coaches give OC's almost complete control offenses all the time.  Usually the only limit on that is when it clashes with big picture game game management decisions like to go on 4th down or not, to try to score at the end of the first half etc.   

[BrassBulls12]

1 minute ago, Bull Dozer said:

Fantastic post.  Also defensive minded coaches give OC's almost complete control offenses all the time.  Usually the only limit on that is when it clashes with big picture game game management decisions like to go on 4th down or not, to try to score at the end of the first half etc.   

That's true, but the effectiveness of your offense dictates how you make those decisions. Especially when your so dependant on the coordinator and don't provide any insight yourself. You have to go by what you've seen not what you think you can do because you don't really have any insight on what you can do. If anyone is giving thoughts on that is. It's the OC.  

[chapelbull]

Everything trickles down from the HC.  Saban brought in guys to open up the offense.  Supposedly Strong did the same with Gilbert, but it really hasn't materialized.  Q was a huge catalyst in the offense last season.  I've already said that maybe things are different if Battle or McCloud start next year.

[BrassBulls12]

20 hours ago, chapelbull said:

 Present evidence that coordinators act completely independently of their HC's philosophy

This is what I proved wrong, nothing straw man here. Gilbert does act completely independent of his HC. That doesn't mean he gets make clock management decisions. His offense effects how those clock management decisions are made not vise versa. 

[Bull Dozer]

Just now, BrassBulls12 said:

That's true, but the effectiveness of your offense dictates how you make those decisions. Especially when your so dependant on the coordinator and don't provide any insight yourself. You have to go by what you've seen not what you think you can do because you don't really have any insight on what you can do. If anyone is giving thoughts on that is. It's the OC.  

I disagree.  It's not like HC's aren't watching the offense when they're on the sideline and they're not offensively illiterate.    They may not be involved in the game planning, play calling, drawing up plays but they can see what their offense is doing on that particular day to make those flow of the game calls.  The majority of the time the HC handles the DO (do we go for it, do we kick a fg or try to score before half etc) the OC handles the how (inside run, pass, etc).  

[Bull Dozer]

Just now, BrassBulls12 said:

This is what I proved wrong, nothing straw man here. Gilbert does act completely independent of his HC. That doesn't mean he gets make clock management decisions. His offense effects how those clock management decisions are made not vise versa. 

I HIGHLY doubt that.  My guess is at the start of a possession CCS gets on the head set and says "Sterling let's run this clock down, or if we can pick up a 1st down here we'll try to score before the half is out" and Sterling goes to work on that.  That's the typical hierarchy..... HC sets the goal OC does what he thinks will best get that result.  IF CCS is deferring that much to Gilbert I'd be very surprised.  Especially considering they way he controls information about his program (injury reports, practice reports, closed practices etc).  I can't see him conceding those kind of leadership decisions.  That's MUCH different than recognizing you don't know enough about an offense to call plays or game plan.  Especially when it's your ass on the line for those key game flow decisions.... 

Edited November 30, 2018 by Bull Dozer

[chapelbull]

4 minutes ago, BrassBulls12 said:

This is what I proved wrong, nothing straw man here. Gilbert does act completely independent of his HC. That doesn't mean he gets make clock management decisions. His offense effects how those clock management decisions are made not vise versa. 

No he doesn't.  Strong brought him at Texas to "speed up the offense".   He doesn't act independently.  He does what the HC wants him to do.  That doesn't mean Strong calls the plays.