USF men’s hoops adds transfer Martino Brock

[Bullpride08]

we need a new coach. 

i know I said this before but just 3 years ago St. Johns was in the same place we were/are (for different reasons).  We would ook at our schedule and try to figure out how we would get maybe 5 conference wins and St Johns would be a maybe.  Now they are a no chance.  Now they have the TOP 3 recruiting class coming in and on the verge of being an NCAA powerhouse. 

How did they do it?

hired Steve Lavin. 

Get a new coach already, its not rocket science. 

ps Lavin made the NCAA tourney last year with the same players St Johns prior coach couldnt do anything with.  Though recruiting is HUGE, its also about x's and o's and having the respect of your players.  This is a case and point. of hwo to do it.  USF is case and point of what not to do. But we all love DW.   :

First of all, St. John's has had one 21-win season. USF won 20 games in a season just one year ago. I think it's pretty stupid premature to declare St. John's to be an "NCAA powerhouse."

But much more importantly, according to <a href="http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/college/basketball/taken_by_storm_c3uQr4kfVUkd2rbYjGFp3H">this story from the New York Post</a> at the time of Lavin's hiring, he is making between $1.6 and $1.8 million per year. Stan Heath makes half that. If you're going to donate the difference to get a better coach in here, I'm sure Doug Woolard would be all ears. In the meantime, just throwing random names out there regardless of reality isn't really all that helpful. Heath is an excellent coach, better still when you consider the amount of money he works for. There's no coach in the country that could come to Tampa and win consistently immediately, and even fewer coaches than that who could do it for $900,000 a year.

First, St. Johns is one of the top 10 winningest college programs of all time.  Check it out, they've been considered an NCAA powerhouse for nearly a century.

http://basketball.about.com/od/recordbook/a/most-wins.htm

Also top 10 in winning percentage so it's not all about attrition with them.

No coach would do that?  Really?  How about Donnie Jones who's making less than Stan, coaching at UCF in an inferior conference, in a mickey mouse town, and has beaten Stan heads up in a game, and out recruited him in two straight classes.  Say what you will about his recruiting tactics, in the end he's doing the same for less, and owning the FL recruiting region over us....

I've got more but figured it's easier to stop at one.

[Triple B]

we need a new coach .... 

Get a new coach already, its not rocket science. 

Same thing when Seth was here ... when Mac was here ... and now Stan ... You're right, it's not rocket science, but it's also not as simplistic as you seem to think it is. Stan may or may not be the answer but he's getting, at least, two more years bar something catastrophic  ... but please, carry on anyway.

Two years.  Really? ;D  I've marked you down for this one but you're living on an island man.  He's going to battle it out to survive this one.  He needs significant improvement over the last, and to put more butts in seats to have a shot.  Once USF gets the good word on the new television contract, if the program has shown no improvement...he will not get a sixth.  Such an opportunity is unheard of for such pathetic performance for a HC. And change is good when things are not good.  You don't act like Eeyore, and say 'oh well the sky is falling and there is nothing I can do about'...no you don't accept mediocrity and you change until you find a combination that works. Sometimes it takes a while but if you have a vision you will find what you're looking for....you won't just sitting on your hands and accepting awful.  We won't be doing that much longer having to service $30M debt for SunDome improvements, and with a gigantic television contract coming soon.  Doug knows we'll need to put more butts in stands, and will have dollars for a buyout. 

So carry-on triple, and we'll keep an eye on your good word.

Don't really think I'm that far out on a limb. I just don't see DW cutting Stan loose just 2 years after, arguably, the best basketball regular season in USF history and less than 2 years after giving him a contract extension ... and the loss of AC may have been the impetus giving him next year even if this one is not that improved ... Plus, being Nomads this year adds to the list of "excuses" to get through 2012-13. After that season, DW will have a better handle on the kids being brought in now and if they're going be any kind of a foundation.

[gobulls83]

we need a new coach. 

i know I said this before but just 3 years ago St. Johns was in the same place we were/are (for different reasons).  We would ook at our schedule and try to figure out how we would get maybe 5 conference wins and St Johns would be a maybe.  Now they are a no chance.  Now they have the TOP 3 recruiting class coming in and on the verge of being an NCAA powerhouse. 

How did they do it?

hired Steve Lavin. 

Get a new coach already, its not rocket science. 

ps Lavin made the NCAA tourney last year with the same players St Johns prior coach couldnt do anything with.  Though recruiting is HUGE, its also about x's and o's and having the respect of your players.  This is a case and point. of hwo to do it.  USF is case and point of what not to do. But we all love DW.   :

First of all, St. John's has had one 21-win season. USF won 20 games in a season just one year ago. I think it's pretty stupid premature to declare St. John's to be an "NCAA powerhouse."

But much more importantly, according to <a href="http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/college/basketball/taken_by_storm_c3uQr4kfVUkd2rbYjGFp3H">this story from the New York Post</a> at the time of Lavin's hiring, he is making between $1.6 and $1.8 million per year. Stan Heath makes half that. If you're going to donate the difference to get a better coach in here, I'm sure Doug Woolard would be all ears. In the meantime, just throwing random names out there regardless of reality isn't really all that helpful. Heath is an excellent coach, better still when you consider the amount of money he works for. There's no coach in the country that could come to Tampa and win consistently immediately, and even fewer coaches than that who could do it for $900,000 a year.

First, St. Johns is one of the top 10 winningest college programs of all time.  Check it out, they've been considered an NCAA powerhouse for nearly a century.

http://basketball.about.com/od/recordbook/a/most-wins.htm

Also top 10 in winning percentage so it's not all about attrition with them.

Not under Lavin. And I'm not sure how this enhances the argument that because St. John's won 21 games last season, USF should as well.

No coach would do that?  Really?  How about Donnie Jones who's making less than Stan, coaching at UCF in an inferior conference, in a mickey mouse town, and has beaten Stan heads up in a game, and out recruited him in two straight classes.  Say what you will about his recruiting tactics, in the end he's doing the same for less, and owning the FL recruiting region over us....

I've got more but figured it's easier to stop at one.

Yes, Donnie Jones is the answer USF is looking for. Of course.

See, UCF under Jones had one decent season. Last year, they won 21 games in Conference USA. But USF had a 20-win season under Stan Heath as well, in an infinitely tougher conference. If one 20-win season is all it takes, then hey, we're set here at USF, right? Yeah, for about three weeks last year it looked like UCF had put together a special team ... until they remembered who they were and fell apart. If UCF's season this past year is the standard you're looking to uphold, then I don't see how you can possibly argue that Stan Heath should be fired. But maybe you think 6-10 in sorry Conference USA is more impressive than I do.

Also, your argument is that Jones is a better coach than Billy Donovan at Florida, right? Afterall, one single game is obviously enough of a sample size for you to make these kinds of judgments, and UCF beat Florida last year.

Nothing Jones has done in his one single season at UCF is any sort of reason to assume he could have USF competitive on an annual basis in the Big East any faster than Stan Heath could. I mean, Heath had accomplished far more as a head coach before coming to USF than Jones has at this point in his career.

[Bullpride08]

we need a new coach .... 

Get a new coach already, its not rocket science. 

Same thing when Seth was here ... when Mac was here ... and now Stan ... You're right, it's not rocket science, but it's also not as simplistic as you seem to think it is. Stan may or may not be the answer but he's getting, at least, two more years bar something catastrophic  ... but please, carry on anyway.

Two years.  Really? ;D  I've marked you down for this one but you're living on an island man.  He's going to battle it out to survive this one.  He needs significant improvement over the last, and to put more butts in seats to have a shot.  Once USF gets the good word on the new television contract, if the program has shown no improvement...he will not get a sixth.  Such an opportunity is unheard of for such pathetic performance for a HC. And change is good when things are not good.  You don't act like Eeyore, and say 'oh well the sky is falling and there is nothing I can do about'...no you don't accept mediocrity and you change until you find a combination that works. Sometimes it takes a while but if you have a vision you will find what you're looking for....you won't just sitting on your hands and accepting awful.  We won't be doing that much longer having to service $30M debt for SunDome improvements, and with a gigantic television contract coming soon.  Doug knows we'll need to put more butts in stands, and will have dollars for a buyout. 

So carry-on triple, and we'll keep an eye on your good word.

Don't really think I'm that far out on a limb. I just don't see DW cutting Stan loose just 2 years after, arguably, the best basketball regular season in USF history and less than 2 years after giving him a contract extension ... and the loss of AC may have been the impetus giving him next year even if this one is not that improved ... Plus, being Nomads this year adds to the list of "excuses" to get through 2012-13. After that season, DW will have a better handle on the kids being brought in now and if they're going be any kind of a foundation.

We'll agree to disagree, but the writing is on the wall.  No need to bring in a new coach this year that would be put into a bind of being nomadic, and the new television contract wasn't on the horizon like it will be after the next year.  Remember when he signed his contract extension it was after his 3rd year at USF.  He had two more years remaining.  DOUG had to sign him because a coach with less than 2 years left on a contract is like a dead man walking recruiting...particularly with Stan's record.  Well after next season Stan will have less than 4 on his extension, so Doug will need to start contemplating an extension for Stan again if they go past next year because his contract expires in 2015.  These things never go until the contract expires, we all know that, nor come close for fear it effects fan support, and recruiting.  That's right it will be imperative for recruiting particularly if Stan's season is as bad as his last one that we let him go or extend him aain.  Not to mention when they extended the contract they softened the buyouts for both sides USF and Stan's.

Next year will be the time, that way the new coach will have the full facility, the new Sundome, and can play at home again.  Doug will not be able to extend Stan again and to have him going into the 2012-13 season with only two years remaining on his schedule would be crazy.  I really think the only way Stan keeps his job after next year is with AT LEAST a .500 season or better, and something hanging on that gives us promise for a better tomorrow.  Less than that it would be maddening to not let him go.

Remember rumors are we could be seeing a television deal that will double or more our revenue stream.  

[Bullpride08]

we need a new coach. 

i know I said this before but just 3 years ago St. Johns was in the same place we were/are (for different reasons).  We would ook at our schedule and try to figure out how we would get maybe 5 conference wins and St Johns would be a maybe.  Now they are a no chance.  Now they have the TOP 3 recruiting class coming in and on the verge of being an NCAA powerhouse. 

How did they do it?

hired Steve Lavin. 

Get a new coach already, its not rocket science. 

ps Lavin made the NCAA tourney last year with the same players St Johns prior coach couldnt do anything with.  Though recruiting is HUGE, its also about x's and o's and having the respect of your players.  This is a case and point. of hwo to do it.  USF is case and point of what not to do. But we all love DW.   :

First of all, St. John's has had one 21-win season. USF won 20 games in a season just one year ago. I think it's pretty stupid premature to declare St. John's to be an "NCAA powerhouse."

But much more importantly, according to <a href="http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/college/basketball/taken_by_storm_c3uQr4kfVUkd2rbYjGFp3H">this story from the New York Post</a> at the time of Lavin's hiring, he is making between $1.6 and $1.8 million per year. Stan Heath makes half that. If you're going to donate the difference to get a better coach in here, I'm sure Doug Woolard would be all ears. In the meantime, just throwing random names out there regardless of reality isn't really all that helpful. Heath is an excellent coach, better still when you consider the amount of money he works for. There's no coach in the country that could come to Tampa and win consistently immediately, and even fewer coaches than that who could do it for $900,000 a year.

First, St. Johns is one of the top 10 winningest college programs of all time.  Check it out, they've been considered an NCAA powerhouse for nearly a century.

http://basketball.about.com/od/recordbook/a/most-wins.htm

Also top 10 in winning percentage so it's not all about attrition with them.

Not under Lavin. And I'm not sure how this enhances the argument that because St. John's won 21 games last season, USF should as well.

No coach would do that?  Really?  How about Donnie Jones who's making less than Stan, coaching at UCF in an inferior conference, in a mickey mouse town, and has beaten Stan heads up in a game, and out recruited him in two straight classes.  Say what you will about his recruiting tactics, in the end he's doing the same for less, and owning the FL recruiting region over us....

I've got more but figured it's easier to stop at one.

Yes, Donnie Jones is the answer USF is looking for. Of course.

See, UCF under Jones had one decent season. Last year, they won 21 games in Conference USA. But USF had a 20-win season under Stan Heath as well, in an infinitely tougher conference. If one 20-win season is all it takes, then hey, we're set here at USF, right? Yeah, for about three weeks last year it looked like UCF had put together a special team ... until they remembered who they were and fell apart. If UCF's season this past year is the standard you're looking to uphold, then I don't see how you can possibly argue that Stan Heath should be fired. But maybe you think 6-10 in sorry Conference USA is more impressive than I do.

Also, your argument is that Jones is a better coach than Billy Donovan at Florida, right? Afterall, one single game is obviously enough of a sample size for you to make these kinds of judgments, and UCF beat Florida last year.

Nothing Jones has done in his one single season at UCF is any sort of reason to assume he could have USF competitive on an annual basis in the Big East any faster than Stan Heath could. I mean, Heath had accomplished far more as a head coach before coming to USF than Jones has at this point in his career.

Well, my first point is St. Johns was a powerhouse before Lavin came in...so his arrival made it easier.  With that being said it's very easy to see clear cut differences between St. John's 21 win season and our 20 win season...shall we count the ways.

1.  St. Johns beat three top 5 teams in that span.  We beat none

2.  The results were a national ranking for much of the season- we got none.

3.  SJU went to the big dance- we went to the NIT.

4.  St. Johns sold nearly 20k tixs to see us play them at the end of the year and whip us- we sold 5800 the previous year to watch them whip us at home.

5.  SJU parlayed that huge season into a top 3 recruiting class....top 3- USF signed nothing of significance.

6.  SJU already had two post season bids in the previous two seasons-- we had losing seasons.

There is a myraid of reasons to prove why their 21 win season this year was no fluke, and ours was in every way.  The key contributors in that run, were not even Stan Heath recruits, all were signed or transfered in under McCullum's watch.  Not all 20 win seasons are alike...and some programs like St. Johns, and with a high powered coach like Lavin, can parlay a 21 win season into a top 3 class, two 5-star recruits and tons of accolades, and some well let's just say it was a fun run, but clearly isolated.

As for your discussion, or rather spinning, on Jones it really doesn't make any sense.  You asked who makes less money and could do more...I said Donnie Jones is doing it.  Some would argue Isiah Thomas is doing the same at FIU.  You set the bar, and I showed you the examples.  And no 'one single game is enough to measure' but you see Donovan has done far more to demonstrate that he's a good coach.  Stan has not.  I can provide you a whole litany of reasons why this is not the case, without try to provide silly transitive theories.  You asked who had done as much with a similar budget and getting paid less and I showed you.

BTW, do you not find it weird that after Stan's extension he got a huge jump in pay for assistants, and yet has had trouble retaining them since then?

Stan got beat by Donnie Jones, and lost to FAU (something USF has never done before).....Donnie Jones recruiting class, take out his to 50 signee in Chandler, and it was stellar by FL standards...kids we should have signed.  Not the entire piec to any puzzle but I can say from this vantage point that I would prefer to have Donnie Jones, then Stan Heath....put aside the results Donnie was mentored by Billy Donovan...and Billy Donovan is building a pretty good coaching tree.

[Triple B]

we need a new coach .... 

Get a new coach already, its not rocket science. 

Same thing when Seth was here ... when Mac was here ... and now Stan ... You're right, it's not rocket science, but it's also not as simplistic as you seem to think it is. Stan may or may not be the answer but he's getting, at least, two more years bar something catastrophic  ... but please, carry on anyway.

Two years.  Really? ;D  I've marked you down for this one but you're living on an island man.  He's going to battle it out to survive this one.  He needs significant improvement over the last, and to put more butts in seats to have a shot.  Once USF gets the good word on the new television contract, if the program has shown no improvement...he will not get a sixth.  Such an opportunity is unheard of for such pathetic performance for a HC. And change is good when things are not good.  You don't act like Eeyore, and say 'oh well the sky is falling and there is nothing I can do about'...no you don't accept mediocrity and you change until you find a combination that works. Sometimes it takes a while but if you have a vision you will find what you're looking for....you won't just sitting on your hands and accepting awful.  We won't be doing that much longer having to service $30M debt for SunDome improvements, and with a gigantic television contract coming soon.  Doug knows we'll need to put more butts in stands, and will have dollars for a buyout. 

So carry-on triple, and we'll keep an eye on your good word.

Don't really think I'm that far out on a limb. I just don't see DW cutting Stan loose just 2 years after, arguably, the best basketball regular season in USF history and less than 2 years after giving him a contract extension ... and the loss of AC may have been the impetus giving him next year even if this one is not that improved ... Plus, being Nomads this year adds to the list of "excuses" to get through 2012-13. After that season, DW will have a better handle on the kids being brought in now and if they're going be any kind of a foundation.

We'll agree to disagree, but the writing is on the wall.  No need to bring in a new coach this year that would be put into a bind of being nomadic, and the new television contract wasn't on the horizon like it will be after the next year.  Remember when he signed his contract extension it was after his 3rd year at USF.  He had two more years remaining.  DOUG had to sign him because a coach with less than 2 years left on a contract is like a dead man walking recruiting...particularly with Stan's record.  Well after next season Stan will have less than 4 on his extension, so Doug will need to start contemplating an extension for Stan again if they go past next year because his contract expires in 2015.  These things never go until the contract expires, we all know that, nor come close for fear it effects fan support, and recruiting.  That's right it will be imperative for recruiting particularly if Stan's season is as bad as his last one that we let him go or extend him aain.  Not to mention when they extended the contract they softened the buyouts for both sides USF and Stan's.

Next year will be the time, that way the new coach will have the full facility, the new Sundome, and can play at home again.  Doug will not be able to extend Stan again and to have him going into the 2012-13 season with only two years remaining on his schedule would be crazy.  I really think the only way Stan keeps his job after next year is with AT LEAST a .500 season or better, and something hanging on that gives us promise for a better tomorrow.  Less than that it would be maddening to not let him go.

Remember rumors are we could be seeing a television deal that will double or more our revenue stream.  

That is a big part of why I said that 2012-2013 is the magic year. He'll be either let go or re-upped after the 2012-13 season, depending on the next two years, as to avoid the uncertainty. There is just no big urgency to justify doing it after this year, IMO ... unless Coach K steps away from Duke, saying he is looking for the ultimate challenge in college hoops.  

[DELdaBull]

Stan's lease is getting shorter and shorter, and he signs this scrub.

[Bruce Blingstein]

Well, my first point is St. Johns was a powerhouse before Lavin came in...so his arrival made it easier.  With that being said it's very easy to see clear cut differences between St. John's 21 win season and our 20 win season...shall we count the ways.

1.  St. Johns beat three top 5 teams in that span.  We beat none

2.  The results were a national ranking for much of the season- we got none.

3.  SJU went to the big dance- we went to the NIT.

4.  St. Johns sold nearly 20k tixs to see us play them at the end of the year and whip us- we sold 5800 the previous year to watch them whip us at home.

5.  SJU parlayed that huge season into a top 3 recruiting class....top 3- USF signed nothing of significance.

6.  SJU already had two post season bids in the previous two seasons-- we had losing seasons.

There is a myraid of reasons to prove why their 21 win season this year was no fluke, and ours was in every way.  The key contributors in that run, were not even Stan Heath recruits, all were signed or transfered in under McCullum's watch.  Not all 20 win seasons are alike...and some programs like St. Johns, and with a high powered coach like Lavin, can parlay a 21 win season into a top 3 class, two 5-star recruits and tons of accolades, and some well let's just say it was a fun run, but clearly isolated.

if this were a facebook comment i would "like it"

this is exactly right and what 99.9% of ncaa basketball viewers would agree with.  the .1 would be green and gold goggle wearers. 

how someone can even try to compare what lavin is doing at SJU to what heath is doing at USF at somewhat of an even level is laughable.   

A TOP THREE recruiting class, gobulls.  think about that with teams like Duke, UCONN, UNC, UCLA, PITT, Kansas, Kentucky, UF, Syracuse, etc. out there recruiting.  Now think they were somewhat in our boat (not tradition or history wise) but wins and loss -wise three years ago. 

Go go Stan Heath. 

[Triple B]

Well, my first point is St. Johns was a powerhouse before Lavin came in...so his arrival made it easier.  With that being said it's very easy to see clear cut differences between St. John's 21 win season and our 20 win season...shall we count the ways.

1.  St. Johns beat three top 5 teams in that span.  We beat none

2.  The results were a national ranking for much of the season- we got none.

3.  SJU went to the big dance- we went to the NIT.

4.  St. Johns sold nearly 20k tixs to see us play them at the end of the year and whip us- we sold 5800 the previous year to watch them whip us at home.

5.  SJU parlayed that huge season into a top 3 recruiting class....top 3- USF signed nothing of significance.

6.  SJU already had two post season bids in the previous two seasons-- we had losing seasons.

There is a myraid of reasons to prove why their 21 win season this year was no fluke, and ours was in every way.  The key contributors in that run, were not even Stan Heath recruits, all were signed or transfered in under McCullum's watch.  Not all 20 win seasons are alike...and some programs like St. Johns, and with a high powered coach like Lavin, can parlay a 21 win season into a top 3 class, two 5-star recruits and tons of accolades, and some well let's just say it was a fun run, but clearly isolated.

if this were a facebook comment i would "like it"

this is exactly right and what 99.9% of ncaa basketball viewers would agree with.  the .1 would be green and gold goggle wearers. 

how someone can even try to compare what lavin is doing at SJU to what heath is doing at USF at somewhat of an even level is laughable.   

A TOP THREE recruiting class, gobulls.  think about that with teams like Duke, UCONN, UNC, UCLA, PITT, Kansas, Kentucky, UF, Syracuse, etc. out there recruiting.  Now think they were somewhat in our boat (not tradition or history wise) but wins and loss -wise three years ago. 

Go go Stan Heath. 

: ... I realize you post like this to make you feel superior to us lowly, uninformed Bulls fans but, with all due respect to 93, he's the only one trying to equate the situation here to the situation at St Johns. Like almost every other hoops program in the BE, with their history and tradition, it shouldn't be that difficult to get a program back on track again and Lavin seems the perfect match for SJU ....  but thanks anyway for pointing out the painfully obvious. 

[Bruce Blingstein]

no triple b, actually just posted it since 83 doesnt ever seem to think he is wrong and it obviously wasnt painfully obvious to him.  Since he roots all things usf with a complete biased opinion sometimes you have to beat it into him.  Its ok to admit USF is failing miserable with their basketball program for as long as we can all remember.  Sure there is a speckle of light here and there, but overall grossly failing.  I only use the St Johns example because I was once a fanbefore I attended USF and then they joined the BE.  Then I had to choose USF over them.  Problem is next year if its a meaningful game for St. Johns (being i already know our season is over before it starts) I will have to root for St. Johns.  That is sad, but thats what it has come to being a USF bball fan for 15 years. 

again, my point is no matter what the tradition of SJU, they had major problems under Jarvis that gave the university a black eye.  They went out a made a bad hire, a no name guy who would do the right thing.  In return he and they lost.  He had no appreal to recruits in the mecca of basketball.  Then, they go out and hire Steve Lavin and Gene Keady as an advisor (just as big a hire) and realize you can win big and do it right as well.  They made a move, and though you say it isnt as simplistic as it seems, that did seem pretty simple. 

I equate a lot of college bball to sales because it fits.  There is no accountability or expectations at USF, so there is no drive for our coaches or AD to correct it.  Now that we have those million dollar renovations Im assuming we will do something different and there has to be accountability.  If your sales manager isnt recruiting new reps and motivating its current reps your whole system is screwed from the foundation up.  Thats whats going on here.  Start with an eye opening hire (like a Lavin type one) so fans can start to believe there is some sort of dedication to the program.  Then we can go from there.  Right now you put the same old guy out there, with the same old stunts and moves, nothing is going to change. 

in the word of Ari Hinkleberger "If this dog dont hunt, pull that turkey"  (something like that)