Rejected by Penn State, signing with RU?

[Bullpride08]

This is where it will hurt us tremendously if we don't watch it.  Clearly UL, and RU are not going to sit pat and worry about the academics side of things for football.  They both want to win, and were all to willing to accept Joyer- and others before him.

Remember this day when you tie the hands of your coaches.  When UL, or RU beats you with the very same players we reject just remember to beat your chest about our academic prowess in regards to the football team. :  I for one believe a committee should be concentrating more on improving our academic status of a University and stop worrying about the trivialness of a football program.  If the APR drops it's on the coach, and then you get a new coach, but don't tie the hands of a football coach....not when we're struggling to keep up with the other state schools in academic prowess on the University side-- Harvard we're not.  Improving the scholastic nature of your football program, particularly for a school like USF, is the most asinine waste of resources....no one cares, and all the truly care about at the end of the day is wins-and-losses.  If the team embarrasses you with an APR issue, or sudden highly publicized flunk outs....well then that's what firing is for!

Neither one of those school is last among BCS schools in APR, nor are they at the point where they will lose scholarship due to APR. We are at 917, and had to apply for a waiver to not lose scholarships. We have to bring it way up, we cant take the chances on some of these guys. Yes teh schools should be more responsible for getting these guys in class, and gettin good grades, which they are taking steps towards right now. But if you look at the overall recruiting for the big time schools, they are getting guys who are phenomenal athletes and are also easy qualifiers. That is a true blue chip recruit. We havent gotten to the level of getting those guys consistently. What I am saying is UL and RU are made up of a better academic base of recruits then what we have right now, they can take a chance.

Actually no -  we will go way up next year because all the transfers that happened when we went to the BE will be off our record.

That and not letting guys who barely qualify with questionable academics join our program. They are being proactive and trying to build the program the right way. The timing could be better on some of these, but it has to be done

What a joke, they're building a program 'the right way'.  So FSU's 3 national championships is the wrong way because of some issues?  Ditto for Oklahoma?  As long as your program accepts strong academic players that's all you care about and is 'building a program the right way'?  Just remember you said this when or if the program ever goes 4-8, and loses handedly to FSU, and Miami....you just tell those FSU adn Miami fans that 'at least we're building our program the right way'....I can guarantee you they will laugh in your face, and mention that their academic side is better than orus and that's all they're really worried about building from an academic standpoint.  On football they just want a coach to build a winner....it's absolute hilarious semantics for a committee to grant an exception for one kid at a 2.8 GPA, and pass on another with a 2.59....remember neither would get into USF without football anyway so it's already being highly hypocritical. 

I believe like most programs that the blood is on the hands of the coach, don't muddy the waters by allowing the academic side to get to involved.  Because what happens is the what's and who's to blame are difficult to discern.  You put in guy's contract fairly straight forward academic, APR, and gradaution requirements as causes for dismissal ....he doesn't accomplish then he gets fired.  That's the real world, and in the real world you shouldn't need your hand held, or people to watch over you.

[CyberBull]

This is where it will hurt us tremendously if we don't watch it.  Clearly UL, and RU are not going to sit pat and worry about the academics side of things for football.  They both want to win, and were all to willing to accept Joyer- and others before him.

Remember this day when you tie the hands of your coaches.  When UL, or RU beats you with the very same players we reject just remember to beat your chest about our academic prowess in regards to the football team. :  I for one believe a committee should be concentrating more on improving our academic status of a University and stop worrying about the trivialness of a football program.  If the APR drops it's on the coach, and then you get a new coach, but don't tie the hands of a football coach....not when we're struggling to keep up with the other state schools in academic prowess on the University side-- Harvard we're not.  Improving the scholastic nature of your football program, particularly for a school like USF, is the most asinine waste of resources....no one cares, and all the truly care about at the end of the day is wins-and-losses.  If the team embarrasses you with an APR issue, or sudden highly publicized flunk outs....well then that's what firing is for!

Really?

Why even force these kids to attend class?

'Pride, its more than perception or being embarrassed. It's actual tangible ramifications of signing kids that don't belong in college. Low APRs can actually cost us scholarships as can low graduation rates. Secondly, the perception needs to be changed b/c its being used against us in recruiting. Finally, its not like we have lost a TON of kids b/c of this new policy. We lost three players.

Thorton was a kid that struggled to graduate and despite being spoonfed his coursework at prepschool could still not get eligible. Remember, we he could have easily gone to Arkansas if not for his academic situation

Green -- will be on campus next year, and in the long run it sounds like the one year detour was good for this kid as the last report I read was that he has seen the light and excelled in JUCO and will have three years of eligibility.

Joyner -- realize, that USF wanted this kid to make it on campus. Is it USF's fault that his transcript looked like a NCAA violation waiting to happen. There was way too much risk in admitting this kid considering that based on his academic prowess in high school, or lack thereof it was questionable whether he would EVER make a contribution on the filed. Are you suggesting that USF should have ignored his transcripts? If so, what's next? Do we start looking the other way for other things?

At the end of the day you want to sign kids that can actually make it on the field. Do you think Savala is going to help us this year? How about JPP? All the stars in the world can't help you if they can't stay eligible. Heck... look at Jeremiah Warren. Don't you think he could have helped us this spring if he was eligible to practice?

BTW, the committee is  not asking these kids to be Rhodes Scholars. Instead its asking for a tangible proof that the kids we are signing actually have a chance to graduate, which at the end the day will actually get you more recruits than you will lose.

IMO, USF's staff needs to continue doing a better job in being more selective. Despite all the bellyaching we have only really lost two recruits we actually thought had a chance to make it on campus. 23 out of 25 is pretty **** good, considering the caliber and athleticism of the 23 players who will actually make it on campus.

[redfisher78]

Bullpride08 it is not a joke when I say the right way. The last thing I want as a fan is a crappy football team. But i also dont want to be knows as the University who will take the second rate recruits who barely make it, and who doesnt have the same number of scholarships as all of the other Universities to hand out each year.

[CyberBull]

Yes. losing scholarships is a way larger handcuff to a coach than a grades committee.  Is it too much to ask these players to get their head out of their Kiester and study a little if they want to make it to the big time?  I like the way some are willing to say to just let them play, get them in and deal with it later, and then also jump at society for creating pro athletes that have no control and how someone should have held them accountable.

I want to have a winning program.  But would want to also have a program that graduates student athletes that can spell, and add..

UL, UR, these programs are hurting these guys by telling them they can skate as long as they make the big hit.

DUH, the point is if the coach loses scholarships because of the APR then he gets FIRED!  You don't babysit, and micro-manage.  I've seen this destroy other 1-A programs before, the institutional side gets nervous and a knee-jerked response like this occurs.  We lose kids late in the process, or don't go out on a limb.  The results are the football program suffers AND you lose your coach.  If you worry about the effects, and not try to be pro-active, then if the coach the program loses scholarships and embarrasses the University you just fire the coach, presumably while the program is  still on decent footing.

Apis, don't make me laugh comparing us to PSU....PSU lands 5-10 blue-chips a year.  We land 1-2 every five.  They will recover from it, but if USF doesn't watch it someday they won't recover from it.

By the way, before acting so pompous toward the football program lets go back and get the Universities academic numbers in order.  We've got a 48% graduation rate, and are still using transfer students as our claim to fame.  Get that side strengthened before wasting resources to watchdog the football program!!!!!!!!  That's what an AD is for.

What knee jerk reaction?

USF has lost three players b/c of the new committee. The only reason has received negative press is b/c of the way it played out in the media. They could probably handled the PR aspect of the news better with Thorton and Green last year, but with Joyner even Brett took our side.

BTW, if you don't perception matters ask anthony Maines who after enthusiastically committing to USF was  literally and figurative badgered by negative recruiting b/c of USF's lack of academic prowess.

[Apis Bull]

Having athletes that are slightly above the NCAA minimums and winning are not mutually exclusive.

[Bullpride08]

Bullpride08 it is not a joke when I say the right way. The last thing I want as a fan is a crappy football team. But i also dont want to be knows as the University who will take the second rate recruits who barely make it, and who doesnt have the same number of scholarships as all of the other Universities to hand out each year.

But this is the point redfish....no one knows who the 'second rate recruits who barely make it' are....it isn't some published name or number.  It's a preception that you're being fed which has led to this opinion.  You think we're getting 'second rate recruits who barely make it'....but the fact is most BCS schools are among the top 100 academic institutions...probably 50% of their football recruits, and hoops recruits fit into the label you mention including USF.

You are not going to suddenly get a bunch of 3.8 1400 SAT guys walking in a winning football games for us.  This issue arose from the APR, or so it appears.  Much of the issue there had to do with character with guys like Hunnicutt, Randy Jackson, and Josh Julmiste transfering out, or quitting with personal issues.  That's on the coach.  Kamran Joyer had grade forgiveness classes, and the witch hunt done by USF resulted in ZERO!  He was accepted into UL, RU, Nebraska, and two SEC, and two B10 schools were hot on his trail.  His acceptance was semantics, and yes it was partly due to impatience on the Joyers part, but it was also due to a newly created system that took some decision making out of the hands of people previously in charge of it.  As an adult you have to ask yourself is tha appropriate?  Should someone's job be on the line rather than adding another layer?  Personally I think the job should be on the line because you can over-compensate and add layers.

Oh, and cyber, this goes WAY further than 3 recruits.  You're simplifying and you know it.  Not worth getting an open board into panic mode, however it also isn't right to run around and act hypocrtical about 'building a program right' when in 2-3 months these are the same fans that will be calling for Leavitt's head if he loses to FSU and MIAMI....the same schools who have no problem accepting marginal guys.  Michigan was able to get in Martavious Odoms when we couldn't assure such a thing.  Did that diminish Michigan's academic reputation, or tarnish their athletic one?  Nope, but they did something we probably couldn't have done and that is get Martavious Odom into school.

[Bullpride08]

Having athletes that are slightly above the NCAA minimums and winning are not mutually exclusive.

Prove it.  You're talking out of your arse on this one.  the APR has nothing to do with entrance standards...a committee is try to transpose entrance requirements with academic rigors.  It's hard to be certain when your dealing with marginal students. 

Most football programs at the BCS level have a high margin of players at the NCAA minimums...and furthermore BELOW their minimum entrance requirements.  For USF the selection of elite athletes with strong academic acumen is even more difficult to come by.  The bigger schools swarm these kids and we rarely land a shot.

[CyberBull]

Having athletes that are slightly above the NCAA minimums and winning are not mutually exclusive.

Amen brother.

Look at UC. They recently went through the same thing in 'slightly' raising their standards and all they did was get a BCS bid last year.

You are 100% correct. It doesnt have to mutually exclusive and with huge pool of talented kids to sign in the state of florida, it seems foolish to take a high risk player who only has a marginal chance to be better than a kid who is already qualified and will not sap the staff's energy and effort in keeping them eligible.

[Apis Bull]

Having athletes that are slightly above the NCAA minimums and winning are not mutually exclusive.

Prove it.  You're talking out of your arse on this one.  the APR has nothing to do with entrance standards...a committee is try to transpose entrance requirements with academic rigors.  It's hard to be certain when your dealing with marginal students. 

Most football programs at the BCS level have a high margin of players at the NCAA minimums...and furthermore BELOW their minimum entrance requirements.  For USF the selection of elite athletes with strong academic acumen is even more difficult to come by.  The bigger schools swarm these kids and we rarely land a shot.

Aren't the SEC minimum standards higher than the NCAA minimums?  From what I understand, they play some pretty good football in that conference.

I'm not saying we need to be Duke or Stanford, but you got to kidding if you don't think we can win with the standards we have in place.

[CyberBull]

Bullpride08 it is not a joke when I say the right way. The last thing I want as a fan is a crappy football team. But i also dont want to be knows as the University who will take the second rate recruits who barely make it, and who doesnt have the same number of scholarships as all of the other Universities to hand out each year.

But this is the point redfish....no one knows who the 'second rate recruits who barely make it' are....it isn't some published name or number.  It's a preception that you're being fed which has led to this opinion.  You think we're getting 'second rate recruits who barely make it'....but the fact is most BCS schools are among the top 100 academic institutions...probably 50% of their football recruits, and hoops recruits fit into the label you mention including USF.

You are not going to suddenly get a bunch of 3.8 1400 SAT guys walking in a winning football games for us.  This issue arose from the APR, or so it appears.  Much of the issue there had to do with character with guys like Hunnicutt, Randy Jackson, and Josh Julmiste transfering out, or quitting with personal issues.  That's on the coach.  Kamran Joyer had grade forgiveness classes, and the witch hunt done by USF resulted in ZERO!  He was accepted into UL, RU, Nebraska, and two SEC, and two B10 schools were hot on his trail.  His acceptance was semantics, and yes it was partly due to impatience on the Joyers part, but it was also due to a newly created system that took some decision making out of the hands of people previously in charge of it.  As an adult you have to ask yourself is tha appropriate?  Should someone's job be on the line rather than adding another layer?  Personally I think the job should be on the line because you can over-compensate and add layers.

Oh, and cyber, this goes WAY further than 3 recruits.  You're simplifying and you know it.  Not worth getting an open board into panic mode, however it also isn't right to run around and act hypocrtical about 'building a program right' when in 2-3 months these are the same fans that will be calling for Leavitt's head if he loses to FSU and MIAMI....the same schools who have no problem accepting marginal guys.  Michigan was able to get in Martavious Odoms when we couldn't assure such a thing.  Did that diminish Michigan's academic reputation, or tarnish their athletic one?  Nope, but they did something we probably couldn't have done and that is get Martavious Odom into school.

USF didn't go on a witch hunt. They WANTED to get this kid into school. They just needed to do their due diligence in regards to the kids transcript. Instead the the Joyner's didn't want to wait it out. I can't blame them for not wanting to take the chance, but I don't blame USF on this one since it was determined that Joyner did INDEED have mistakes and real issues with his transcripts.  So much that it was questionable that with recalculated GPA whether his SAT score would be enough to counterbalance his lowere GPA. BTW, more power to UL if they want to build their program like that, you would have thought they would have learned their lesson after Smith and Petrino's questionable recruiting and lack of regards to grades. Its hard to believe that program won the orange bowl a couple of years ago. Oh...Joyner never had a RU offer, so based on some of the half-truths put out in the media by the Joyners it hard to believe anything they say.

'Pride..... we both know that Michigan is MICHIGAN. That is a bad comparison.