Oracle: Letter to the Editor

[Ghost]

1. There is some truth to this. But it isn't like we have 15 5 stars attending the school now.

2. While it may be true that some people back off on donations, I don't see how USF Athletics hasn't invested wisely. 20/20 hindsight is perfect, but on the hire of Skip at the time I think the big donor people were happy.

3. I believe that at an alumni event Pres Genshaft mentioned about 160,000 alums living in the 5 county area. Unfortunately many of them graduated before football. How many graduate each year? A chunk of those will stay in the area and become/stay Bulls fans.

4. I'm sure when faced with going to Princeton or going to Alabama, some smart geeky type guy makes the choice of Alabama because of their football program. Give me a break. Sure football helps with name recognition on some level, but people that are smart enough to do research or become doctors are smart enough to overlook a mediocre football team when choosing a university.

2 of those right here.

[Danm1983]

Athletic success DOES have SOME correlation to student "demand" as it were. It's no coincidence Florida's average GPA levels went up significantly after their big years of 2006-2008. Everyone and their mom wanted in, and more applications means UF was able to be more choosy in its standards, and thus instant "better GPA/test scores/whatever".

I think the issue with USF is laid out in point number four. "...A school so obsessed with its image," is USF in a nutshell. The commercials with Genshaft scream it. The delusional spoiled fanbase screams it. There's so much about USF that just screams "trying too hard," rather than letting things develop. I understand college is a business, and athletics are tongue-in-cheek...a business, but there is absolutely no way to force the things USF envisions. I think they have the right mindset about wanting to be there someday, but I feel like they're in everyone's faces about LOOK AT US! WE'RE A TOP RESEARCH PLACE! COME HERE AND LEARN! WE HAVE A PIRATE SHIP STADIUM AND THE BEACH IS CLOSE BY! USF really can't keep doing that.

USF has made great strides both on the academic side and the athletics side, especially in facilities. They may have to endure a few mistakes in coach hires over the next few years (I'm looking at you baseball and football), but those can be corrected. I myself feel like we should be farther along than we are, but then I sit back and realize how young we are compared to 99% of the other colleges out there we strive to be, especially in athletics. I'm all for correcting the Holtz era if he doesn't deliver in the next year or two (once he for sure has only "his" guys), but rushing it will just lead to another short-term vision that ends up tanking in the long run. I want to defend USF at every chance when UF/FSU/other people degrade it as a commuter school or a safety school or somewhere that just sucks and is garbage. Because it's not any of those (anymore on some counts). I just realized that I have to defend it but not oversell my defense.

[Bull94]

http://www.usforacle...t-fsu-1.2771563

After witnessing the loss of USF to FSU, I felt compelled to write this quick tid-bit on my perspective of football’s impact on USF.

The consequences of a losing football team:

1. Prepare to see more students wearing other schools’ athletic gear, primarily in-state schools such as University of Florida and Florida State University. Prospective athletes and students touring USF will see

this and reconsider applying to a university whose students do not support our school, regardless of any academic ranking we might have. This in turn will downgrade the quality of incoming students, who revert to identifying USF as a “safety school.â€

2. Alumni are becoming impatient, investing time, money and emotional energy into a collegiate team that is often more disappointing than not, and will reconsider diverting their resources away from a program that does not invest it in a logical manner.

3. Tampa will continue to be dominated by the influx of foreign alumni that reside here, preventing Tampa from being a college town that supports USF. Raymond James Stadium will never be home to the Bulls ever again, and will forever be dominated by colors other than green and gold.

4. Football is the greatest advertisement for any university in the South. It’s from national attention of collegiate sports that spark the interests of young people, who in turn follow teams till they are old enough to apply to the universities they admire. For USF, a school so obsessed about its image as a national

powerhouse for superior research and impact, the consequences will be brutal. While football should

be no reflection of the academic integrity of a school, living in the South makes it a quality.

How to help solve this problem:

1. USF students must be proactive in their support for their university. Fickle allegiances cannot exist. Students must understand that as a university that’s half the age of schools like FSU and UF, there’s more pressure for us to represent the green and gold. Wearing collegiate gear that contains spears and gator heads is unacceptable, and should be greatly discouraged.

2. The USF football team. They deserve better, and our fan base deserves better. We’ve been stagnant for too long, and those murmurs have become outcries for change. We shouldn’t reward failure with contract extensions.

3. Tampa needs to support its flagship university with more intensity. For USF to thrive, Tampa must wave with fervent allegiance to the green and gold. Prospective students do not want to attend a university whose host town is not overwhelmingly receptive to its centerpiece.

athletics have nothing to do with academics. flutie effect has been proven wrong time and again. if it were the case alabama would be harvard.

BTW if we wanted to improve our academic standing then I would suggest paying merit scholars the $16M in school funds we spend on athletics. that would draw much better students. that and bright futures is how UF has improved their reputation.

http://www.economist...1/flutie_effect

http://espn.go.com/b...g-flutie-effect

Pretty sure the exact opposite is true. The "Flutie Effect" has been proven correct in multiple studies.

actually it's not. good students don't pick schools based on how well their football team has done.

Writing in the Spring 2003 edition of the Boston College Magazine,^[4] Bill McDonald, director of communications at Boston College’s Lynch School of Education determined that “Applications to BC did surge 16 percent in 1984 (from 12,414 to 14,398), and then another 12 percent (to 16,163) in 1985. But these jumps were not anomalous for BC, which in the previous decade had embarked on a program to build national enrollment using market research, a network of alumni volunteers, strategically allocated financial aid, and improvements to residence halls and academic facilities.†He also observed that “in 1997, one year after revelations about gambling resulted in a coach’s resignation, 13 student-athlete suspensions, an investigation by the NCAA, and hundreds of embarrassing media reports, applications for admission came in at 16,455, virtually unchanged from the previous year. Two years later, when applications jumped by a record 17 percent to 19,746, the surge followed a 4-7 year for football.†Going further back in history, he reported that applications had increased 9 percent in 1978, a year when BC football had its worst year ever, with a 0-11 record.

[Bull94]

Athletic success DOES have SOME correlation to student "demand" as it were. It's no coincidence Florida's average GPA levels went up significantly after their big years of 2006-2008. Everyone and their mom wanted in, and more applications means UF was able to be more choosy in its standards, and thus instant "better GPA/test scores/whatever".

I think the issue with USF is laid out in point number four. "...A school so obsessed with its image," is USF in a nutshell. The commercials with Genshaft scream it. The delusional spoiled fanbase screams it. There's so much about USF that just screams "trying too hard," rather than letting things develop. I understand college is a business, and athletics are tongue-in-cheek...a business, but there is absolutely no way to force the things USF envisions. I think they have the right mindset about wanting to be there someday, but I feel like they're in everyone's faces about LOOK AT US! WE'RE A TOP RESEARCH PLACE! COME HERE AND LEARN! WE HAVE A PIRATE SHIP STADIUM AND THE BEACH IS CLOSE BY! USF really can't keep doing that.

USF has made great strides both on the academic side and the athletics side, especially in facilities. They may have to endure a few mistakes in coach hires over the next few years (I'm looking at you baseball and football), but those can be corrected. I myself feel like we should be farther along than we are, but then I sit back and realize how young we are compared to 99% of the other colleges out there we strive to be, especially in athletics. I'm all for correcting the Holtz era if he doesn't deliver in the next year or two (once he for sure has only "his" guys), but rushing it will just lead to another short-term vision that ends up tanking in the long run. I want to defend USF at every chance when UF/FSU/other people degrade it as a commuter school or a safety school or somewhere that just sucks and is garbage. Because it's not any of those (anymore on some counts). I just realized that I have to defend it but not oversell my defense.

UFs demand went up after Bright Futures started in 1997. the best and brightest high school students could stay in state and go to school for free. UF was not well thought of before that at least among flagship state universities. they also paid (might still) merit scholars to attend the school to raise their academic profile.

[Ghost]

In order to improve both academics and athletics, USF needs to focus on the things it can control.

-Making the campus more appealing and attractive

-Improving facilities

-Improving dorms and events for students(campus life)

-Improving Greek life

-Luring other professors from higher profile universities(money, area, whatever)

-Cleaning up the surrounding area (suitcase city)

These are just some of the things that will attract more students(which will allow us to be more selective). The athletic facilities and better campus will attract better athletes. The coach is something that also affects the team but Holtz isnt going anywhere for a while unless he goes winless. These are obviously just some examples. The University still has a long way to go, but I definitely see that they are trying.

[Bull94]

http://www.usforacle...t-fsu-1.2771563

After witnessing the loss of USF to FSU, I felt compelled to write this quick tid-bit on my perspective of football’s impact on USF.

The consequences of a losing football team:

1. Prepare to see more students wearing other schools’ athletic gear, primarily in-state schools such as University of Florida and Florida State University. Prospective athletes and students touring USF will see

this and reconsider applying to a university whose students do not support our school, regardless of any academic ranking we might have. This in turn will downgrade the quality of incoming students, who revert to identifying USF as a “safety school.â€

2. Alumni are becoming impatient, investing time, money and emotional energy into a collegiate team that is often more disappointing than not, and will reconsider diverting their resources away from a program that does not invest it in a logical manner.

3. Tampa will continue to be dominated by the influx of foreign alumni that reside here, preventing Tampa from being a college town that supports USF. Raymond James Stadium will never be home to the Bulls ever again, and will forever be dominated by colors other than green and gold.

4. Football is the greatest advertisement for any university in the South. It’s from national attention of collegiate sports that spark the interests of young people, who in turn follow teams till they are old enough to apply to the universities they admire. For USF, a school so obsessed about its image as a national

powerhouse for superior research and impact, the consequences will be brutal. While football should

be no reflection of the academic integrity of a school, living in the South makes it a quality.

How to help solve this problem:

1. USF students must be proactive in their support for their university. Fickle allegiances cannot exist. Students must understand that as a university that’s half the age of schools like FSU and UF, there’s more pressure for us to represent the green and gold. Wearing collegiate gear that contains spears and gator heads is unacceptable, and should be greatly discouraged.

2. The USF football team. They deserve better, and our fan base deserves better. We’ve been stagnant for too long, and those murmurs have become outcries for change. We shouldn’t reward failure with contract extensions.

3. Tampa needs to support its flagship university with more intensity. For USF to thrive, Tampa must wave with fervent allegiance to the green and gold. Prospective students do not want to attend a university whose host town is not overwhelmingly receptive to its centerpiece.

athletics have nothing to do with academics. flutie effect has been proven wrong time and again. if it were the case alabama would be harvard.

BTW if we wanted to improve our academic standing then I would suggest paying merit scholars the $16M in school funds we spend on athletics. that would draw much better students. that and bright futures is how UF has improved their reputation.

I am not going to get into a pi$$ing contest with you. BUT, how can you say that you are a supporter of USF athletics and say stuff like this all of the time? You constantly comment on how the amount of money is ridiculous. You are as clear a contradiction as possible.

I said if we wanted to raise the academic profile of the school then it would be wiser spending that $16M on paying merit scholars to attend USF. or for academic scholarships. not putting it into athletics. it's common sense really. I never said how they should spend it only the notion that building great athletics does not equal great academics. if it did then alabama, lsu and auburn would be princeton, yale and harvard. they're not.

[smazza]

Fire Holtz.

Bring in competent coaching that has ties to Florida recruiting.

The end.

good start

[whiskeyboarder]

I can not re-locate the thread, but related to this one, thread participants in another suggested that "if academic success followed the same with athletics" than Alabama, LSU, and USC would be the top academic schools.

Which, of course, they are not.

But the argument is a strawman.

Collegiate academics are so dynamic. The factors that made Princeton, Yale, and Harvard tops now are no longer the dominant factors.

I, for one, would not be shocked if Alabama reached near Princeton prestige within the next 50 years if their football team continues recent success.

The super intelligent do not grow up in a vacuum. And winning is contagious. Smart people like football too. Moreover, they like endowments that can benefit their studies. Endowment is affected by the athletics department; especially when measured on the long term.

To suggest that the football team does not affect the prestige of the school is crazy. Notre Dame is a striking example.

[JTrue]

http://www.usforacle...t-fsu-1.2771563

After witnessing the loss of USF to FSU, I felt compelled to write this quick tid-bit on my perspective of football’s impact on USF.

The consequences of a losing football team:

1. Prepare to see more students wearing other schools’ athletic gear, primarily in-state schools such as University of Florida and Florida State University. Prospective athletes and students touring USF will see

this and reconsider applying to a university whose students do not support our school, regardless of any academic ranking we might have. This in turn will downgrade the quality of incoming students, who revert to identifying USF as a “safety school.â€

2. Alumni are becoming impatient, investing time, money and emotional energy into a collegiate team that is often more disappointing than not, and will reconsider diverting their resources away from a program that does not invest it in a logical manner.

3. Tampa will continue to be dominated by the influx of foreign alumni that reside here, preventing Tampa from being a college town that supports USF. Raymond James Stadium will never be home to the Bulls ever again, and will forever be dominated by colors other than green and gold.

4. Football is the greatest advertisement for any university in the South. It’s from national attention of collegiate sports that spark the interests of young people, who in turn follow teams till they are old enough to apply to the universities they admire. For USF, a school so obsessed about its image as a national

powerhouse for superior research and impact, the consequences will be brutal. While football should

be no reflection of the academic integrity of a school, living in the South makes it a quality.

How to help solve this problem:

1. USF students must be proactive in their support for their university. Fickle allegiances cannot exist. Students must understand that as a university that’s half the age of schools like FSU and UF, there’s more pressure for us to represent the green and gold. Wearing collegiate gear that contains spears and gator heads is unacceptable, and should be greatly discouraged.

2. The USF football team. They deserve better, and our fan base deserves better. We’ve been stagnant for too long, and those murmurs have become outcries for change. We shouldn’t reward failure with contract extensions.

3. Tampa needs to support its flagship university with more intensity. For USF to thrive, Tampa must wave with fervent allegiance to the green and gold. Prospective students do not want to attend a university whose host town is not overwhelmingly receptive to its centerpiece.

athletics have nothing to do with academics. flutie effect has been proven wrong time and again. if it were the case alabama would be harvard.

BTW if we wanted to improve our academic standing then I would suggest paying merit scholars the $16M in school funds we spend on athletics. that would draw much better students. that and bright futures is how UF has improved their reputation.

http://www.economist...1/flutie_effect

http://espn.go.com/b...g-flutie-effect

Pretty sure the exact opposite is true. The "Flutie Effect" has been proven correct in multiple studies.

actually it's not. good students don't pick schools based on how well their football team has done.

Writing in the Spring 2003 edition of the Boston College Magazine,^[4] Bill McDonald, director of communications at Boston College’s Lynch School of Education determined that “Applications to BC did surge 16 percent in 1984 (from 12,414 to 14,398), and then another 12 percent (to 16,163) in 1985. But these jumps were not anomalous for BC, which in the previous decade had embarked on a program to build national enrollment using market research, a network of alumni volunteers, strategically allocated financial aid, and improvements to residence halls and academic facilities.†He also observed that “in 1997, one year after revelations about gambling resulted in a coach’s resignation, 13 student-athlete suspensions, an investigation by the NCAA, and hundreds of embarrassing media reports, applications for admission came in at 16,455, virtually unchanged from the previous year. Two years later, when applications jumped by a record 17 percent to 19,746, the surge followed a 4-7 year for football.†Going further back in history, he reported that applications had increased 9 percent in 1978, a year when BC football had its worst year ever, with a 0-11 record.

Other examples

According to a 2009 study, applications to a university that had its men's basketball team play in the first round of the NCAA Men's Division I Basketball Tournament rose by an average of 1% the following year. Teams with greater success saw larger rises; tournament winners typically saw applications increase by 7 to 8%. As most schools did not raise enrollment after participating in the tournament, the greater number of applications caused them to be more selective in its admissions.[5]

[edit]George Mason

Another school alleged to have experienced the "Flutie Effect" was George Mason University, following their 2005–06 basketball team's advancement to the "Final Four" of the 2006 NCAA Men's Division I Basketball Tournament as an 11th seed.[6]

[edit]Appalachian State

ASU had a "Flutie Effect" after winning multiple Division I FCS championships and upsetting Michigan with Armanti Edwards as their quarterback. Five years after the Michigan game, CBSSports.com writer Dennis Dodd claimed that it was "tied directly to a 17 percent increase in applicants, a 24 percent boost in attendance and a 73 percent goose in licensing royalties."[7]

[edit]Boise State

Boise State University experienced an effect similar to the "Flutie Effect" after their 43-42 overtime victory over Oklahoma in the 2007 Fiesta Bowl. The game capped an undefeated season and a top-5 finish by Boise State, a team not considered to be a traditional football power. Online inquiries about the school increased 135 percent, and graduate school application inquiries increased tenfold. Boise State also enrolled over 19,000 students the next fall, an all-time high. [8]

[edit]Northern Iowa

Another school that was reported to have experienced a similar "Flutie Effect" as a result of a basketball accomplishment was the University of Northern Iowa. In the 2010 NCAA Tournament, the Panthers sprung an upset of top-ranked Kansas. The game and the national exposure that went with it led to massive increases in donations, website traffic, and e-commerce for the athletic department, and a 30 percent increase in calls to UNI's admissions office on the Monday after the upset.[9]

[edit]Butler University

Two studies estimated that television, print, and online news coverage of Butler University's men's basketball team's 2010 and 2011 appearances in the NCAA tournament championship game resulted in additional publicity for the university worth about $1.2 billion. In an example of the "Flutie Effect", applications rose by 41% after the 2010 appearance.[5]

I guess we can go back and forth on this all day since i can type "Flutie Effect" into Wikipedia just like you. But next time, don't stop when the article starts going against your argument. The bottom line is, colleges and the NCAA have all studied this and it's a real thing. Doesn't matter if its 1%, that's thousands of new applicants to select from.

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/NCAANewsArchive/2006/Association-wide/the%2Bflutie%2Beffect%2B-%2B7-31-06%2Bncaa%2Bnews.html

Edited October 1, 2012 by JTrue

[Bull94]

I can not re-locate the thread, but related to this one, thread participants in another suggested that "if academic success followed the same with athletics" than Alabama, LSU, and USC would be the top academic schools.

Which, of course, they are not.

But the argument is a strawman.

Collegiate academics are so dynamic. The factors that made Princeton, Yale, and Harvard tops now are no longer the dominant factors.

I, for one, would not be shocked if Alabama reached near Princeton prestige within the next 50 years if their football team continues recent success.

The super intelligent do not grow up in a vacuum. And winning is contagious. Smart people like football too. Moreover, they like endowments that can benefit their studies. Endowment is affected by the athletics department; especially when measured on the long term.

To suggest that the football team does not affect the prestige of the school is crazy. Notre Dame is a striking example.

and I'm sure Boise state is well on it's way to becoming M.I.T.