Will USF fans have the patience with Skip . . .

[RickUSF]

Recruits care about name recognition, yes, but they also care about getting to the NFL. The way to do that is to do well in a ranked program. I dont care how well we do against UF, UM, FSU or any other single big name game, losing the conference = not ranked, no national exposure, no good recruits.

As CSH has said time and again the focus is the BEast Championship, as well it should be. And with the way we played on Saturday, there's no way that will happen.

100% not true.

Did JPP get drafted in the first round because of good stats vs Big East opponents, or because of a stellar game at FSU? We had what, 4-5 draft picks this year? We're starting a safety for the Eagles in his rookie year and started a corner for the Cowboys since his rookie year. I don't think you have to win a conference to send guys to the NFL.

Sorry, was hiding from the layoff monster today (successfully thank God). Wasn't able to get back on here.

As for other conferences, I don't know that they look at a Big East championship as being that impressive. If the ACC was going to expand, they would probably look at our record vs their teams. If we won the Big East 3 years in a row but were 0-37 against the ACC, do we make sense for them? I guess if they want to bring in a doormat, sure.

You have to play and win big OOC games to turn heads. Again, we do need to win the Big East, it would help us in a lot of ways. My original argument was, and is, you can't avoid big OOC games, and you can't neglect to win any of them if you want to build an elite program. Look at some of the best programs built in the last 25 years and they did it by playing anyone, anywhere, any time. Bowden did it at FSU, UM did it. They didn't get to national prominence because they won their conference (UM was independent for most of their run weren't they?), they got their because they won some big games and forced the nation to take notice.

You do realize that the Big 3 established themselves before the BCS was created, right?  conferences back then didn't have nearly the same value as they do now.  Back then, national champions were voted on.

you say you can't avoid big OOC???  well you can't avoid your IN CONFERENCE GAMES.  LITERALLY.  No matter how close you play UF, how many times you beat FSU, or how many times you have to play the Canes, you STILL have to go into Piscataway and beat that gap-toothed whiner, you STILL have to play Cincy, you STILL have to play in the snow in Storrs, CT.  and if you don't, you end up in the St. Pete bowl and NO ONE will turn their head for you.

Your argument is flawed.

[CowbellBandit]

Your argument is flawed.

The flip side is if we dominate cupcakes and lose to big names, no one will take us seriously either. You need both to establish yourself as a program. The beauty of concentrating on the BEast schedule is that if we win the conference- boom, automatic big name OOC game.

[Orlando Bull]

Recruits care about name recognition, yes, but they also care about getting to the NFL. The way to do that is to do well in a ranked program. I dont care how well we do against UF, UM, FSU or any other single big name game, losing the conference = not ranked, no national exposure, no good recruits.

As CSH has said time and again the focus is the BEast Championship, as well it should be. And with the way we played on Saturday, there's no way that will happen.

100% not true.

Did JPP get drafted in the first round because of good stats vs Big East opponents, or because of a stellar game at FSU? We had what, 4-5 draft picks this year? We're starting a safety for the Eagles in his rookie year and started a corner for the Cowboys since his rookie year. I don't think you have to win a conference to send guys to the NFL.

Sorry, was hiding from the layoff monster today (successfully thank God). Wasn't able to get back on here.

As for other conferences, I don't know that they look at a Big East championship as being that impressive. If the ACC was going to expand, they would probably look at our record vs their teams. If we won the Big East 3 years in a row but were 0-37 against the ACC, do we make sense for them? I guess if they want to bring in a doormat, sure.

You have to play and win big OOC games to turn heads. Again, we do need to win the Big East, it would help us in a lot of ways. My original argument was, and is, you can't avoid big OOC games, and you can't neglect to win any of them if you want to build an elite program. Look at some of the best programs built in the last 25 years and they did it by playing anyone, anywhere, any time. Bowden did it at FSU, UM did it. They didn't get to national prominence because they won their conference (UM was independent for most of their run weren't they?), they got their because they won some big games and forced the nation to take notice.

You do realize that the Big 3 established themselves before the BCS was created, right?  conferences back then didn't have nearly the same value as they do now.  Back then, national champions were voted on.

you say you can't avoid big OOC???  well you can't avoid your IN CONFERENCE GAMES.  LITERALLY.  No matter how close you play UF, how many times you beat FSU, or how many times you have to play the Canes, you STILL have to go into Piscataway and beat that gap-toothed whiner, you STILL have to play Cincy, you STILL have to play in the snow in Storrs, CT.  and if you don't, you end up in the St. Pete bowl and NO ONE will turn their head for you.

Your argument is flawed.

You give 12-0 Cincy a win against OSU last year, and they just might get to play for a national championship. As it was, 12-0 Cincy did not get in the national championship game. SEC had and undefeated team and Big12 had an undefeated team. It was perfectly clear that the Big East is not in that class. No one cared that Cincy made it through the big east undefeated, it didn't impress anyone.

It's really that simple. I see where you're coming from, and yes, it would be awesome to play in a BCS game, but, that seems to be your ultimate goal. I want our program to be the best of the best, in the national championship conversation on a yearly basis. The way to do that is to keep ourselves in the voters minds and win some big games, and recruit head to head against them. Forget the "big 3", Auburn counts, Notre Dame next year, those are the games where (to steal a line from Leavitt), if you want to be in the conversation with the big boys, you have to beat them.

I swear, people make the best arguments. Name me one program that has built a "national championship contender" since the BCS was born. Every national championship team was already big time at that point. The only possible option is Boise, but, you can't argue that point because they aren't in a BCS conference. Texas, UF, Bama, USC, etc were already big before the BCS. I guess there is no argument that I can make that isn't "flawed" because those teams did it before there was a BCS.

You got me.

[CowbellBandit]

Recruits care about name recognition, yes, but they also care about getting to the NFL. The way to do that is to do well in a ranked program. I dont care how well we do against UF, UM, FSU or any other single big name game, losing the conference = not ranked, no national exposure, no good recruits.

As CSH has said time and again the focus is the BEast Championship, as well it should be. And with the way we played on Saturday, there's no way that will happen.

100% not true.

Did JPP get drafted in the first round because of good stats vs Big East opponents, or because of a stellar game at FSU? We had what, 4-5 draft picks this year? We're starting a safety for the Eagles in his rookie year and started a corner for the Cowboys since his rookie year. I don't think you have to win a conference to send guys to the NFL.

Sorry, was hiding from the layoff monster today (successfully thank God). Wasn't able to get back on here.

As for other conferences, I don't know that they look at a Big East championship as being that impressive. If the ACC was going to expand, they would probably look at our record vs their teams. If we won the Big East 3 years in a row but were 0-37 against the ACC, do we make sense for them? I guess if they want to bring in a doormat, sure.

You have to play and win big OOC games to turn heads. Again, we do need to win the Big East, it would help us in a lot of ways. My original argument was, and is, you can't avoid big OOC games, and you can't neglect to win any of them if you want to build an elite program. Look at some of the best programs built in the last 25 years and they did it by playing anyone, anywhere, any time. Bowden did it at FSU, UM did it. They didn't get to national prominence because they won their conference (UM was independent for most of their run weren't they?), they got their because they won some big games and forced the nation to take notice.

You do realize that the Big 3 established themselves before the BCS was created, right?  conferences back then didn't have nearly the same value as they do now.  Back then, national champions were voted on.

you say you can't avoid big OOC???  well you can't avoid your IN CONFERENCE GAMES.  LITERALLY.  No matter how close you play UF, how many times you beat FSU, or how many times you have to play the Canes, you STILL have to go into Piscataway and beat that gap-toothed whiner, you STILL have to play Cincy, you STILL have to play in the snow in Storrs, CT.  and if you don't, you end up in the St. Pete bowl and NO ONE will turn their head for you.

Your argument is flawed.

You give 12-0 Cincy a win against OSU last year, and they just might get to play for a national championship. As it was, 12-0 Cincy did not get in the national championship game. SEC had and undefeated team and Big12 had an undefeated team. It was perfectly clear that the Big East is not in that class. No one cared that Cincy made it through the big east undefeated, it didn't impress anyone.

It's really that simple. I see where you're coming from, and yes, it would be awesome to play in a BCS game, but, that seems to be your ultimate goal. I want our program to be the best of the best, in the national championship conversation on a yearly basis. The way to do that is to keep ourselves in the voters minds and win some big games, and recruit head to head against them. Forget the "big 3", Auburn counts, Notre Dame next year, those are the games where (to steal a line from Leavitt), if you want to be in the conversation with the big boys, you have to beat them.

I swear, people make the best arguments. Name me one program that has built a "national championship contender" since the BCS was born. Every national championship team was already big time at that point. The only possible option is Boise, but, you can't argue that point because they aren't in a BCS conference. Texas, UF, Bama, USC, etc were already big before the BCS. I guess there is no argument that I can make that isn't "flawed" because those teams did it before there was a BCS.

You got me.

If we could just win those big games and lose at least three in our conference and make it on the national stage, I'd agree with you. Our 2007 was a perfect example of what i'm saying- we get to number 2 in the country, then lose in conference and fall apart.

We dont get ranking and a chance at the title without big games. But we dont get it through losing the conference either.

We've proven we can win big games. We haven't proven we can win the conference.

It's pretty clear what our next hurdle is.

[Orlando Bull]

Are we talking next hurdle to make the fans happy, or are we talking about what gives the program more momentum to build something elite.

Seriously, I forget.

The 2007 season was a perfect example...of not having built a program with the depth it takes to get through a 12 game season yet. We wouldn't have been at No. 2 without the Auburn win. I agree with you though, to win a national championship, we're going to have to win the conference, because we're going to have to be 12-0 (maybe 11-1 if the rest of the nation has 2 losses like in 2007 when WVU could have been in with a win over Pitt). No one is arguing against that. What is being said is that, it's more impressive to win the big games and go 8-4 than it is to lose to UF and UM and go 8-4 and win the Big East. Or 9-3, or whatever.

For recruiting and fan base, given those two options, most would have taken the wins over UF and UM this year and we'll get the conference title later.