BJ upton benched again for not hustling

[Singabull]

I think BJ is in a whole different category than the other two.  But forget his offense, his defense is hard to replace.  I know, I know, people are going to whine that he dogs it and throws to the wrong base, yada yada.  Watch Juan Pierre play CF for a few games, and you'll be contributing to the keep Upton in the Bay relief fund.  He's young, and there are maybe three or four CFs in the game that can cover as much ground as he does.  He saves the pitching staff a bunch of runs.

His defensive ability is not being questioned.  It's the piss-poor attitude of not playing hard after being spoken to TWICE by the manager.  Look at cliff floyd.  Guy is old but runs hard on everything.  He even has two infield singles!

[Who'sYourData?]

Attitude is important.  So is talent.  BJ has loads of talent, hopefully the attitude will come around as he matures.

[Bullpride08]

you cant look at his numbers and expect them to stay that way.  he will improve as his plate discipline gets better and his knowledge of the strikezone. 

his ability in CF is unmatched by most players (arm and speed)

also, it is unfair to compare his stats to other #3 hole hitters because he is NOT a number 3 hitter.  the rays just dont have one in this lineup so he got plugged in there.

i agree that he needs to get his attitude straight but like i said, if he can do that....i think he will be a great player for the rays.

how many runs has he saved with his glove or arm in the OF.  i am willing to say about 20 runs.

Matt, AKi isn't a lead-off hitter, but he's getting paid way to much for the Rays to put him at 7-9....we are not the Yankees we cannot afford to have our 7-9 hitters making seven figures.  I am just dealing with the Rays the way any normal Rays fan should.  That's right Bruce, trading BJ wouldn't hurt me in the least if he does better elsewhere.  We're the Rays, not the Yankees, not the Sox...some fans on this board fail to comprehend that just like they do the same thing with USF.  That means the Rays always need to be prepared to value trade, i.e. take a guy like BJ, tade him now while his value is hot and realizing he's unwilling to be with this team past the 11' season and frankly they probably couldn't afford what he'll want.  I would say trade Aki, but he doesn't bring the same value to the Rays that BJ would, with a BJ trade you could see them getting a genuine #3 hitter, and maybe a reliever just for BJ.  That could be too valuable to pass-up.

Right now the Rays have to have Crawford and Aki playing 1-2 or 2-1, both are making seven figures, both are key components and have long-term deals and Crawford has said he wants to stay at 1 or 2.  Last year I would have felt BJ would be perfect at 3, he clocked 26 homers, was cracking doubles on a record rate, and was really a fun hitter.  This year he's had 8 homers, and 22 doubles and 1 triple and batting .270, with 36 stolen bases.  Sure that looks great for a 1-2 hitter but THAT'S NOT WHAT THE RAYS WANT HIM FOR IN THE LONG-TERM.  The Rays wanted BJ to be a 3-6 hitter that gives them homeruns, and You've got to think as if you're the Rays, think of a team that really can't handle going maybe above $60-80M in total salary even if things start to hum along, you look at a BJ, who's valuable on the open market now, and maybe you shiip him off to bolster your bench and bats.  I'd love for BJ to find his old form and stick around at #3, that would be a severely potent line-up....but with his desire NOT to re-sign with the Rays, plus his sudden propensity to walk, and power drought he's suddenly a guy that is making it tougher for the organization to justify keeping around.  You keep him and you risk getting masacred in arbitration and Bj doesn't have to jump production to do that, and him still refusing to sign a long-term deal all the while being content at looking at every pitch, getting walked a TON, and generally not acting like how  a #3 hitter should act at the plate.  Or you trade him, with his smallish salary, range in the outfield and bat he most assuredly gets you some quality talent, sure it will be in exchange for larger salaries, but BJ was going to tattoo the organization in arbitration anyway and this way they can make sure the talent they get matches the Rays needs.  For example if they trade right, send BJ packing for a good outfielder with a decent right handed bat, and reliever then for the most part you've filled your gaps from this year.

BTW, as for BJ's defensive abilities, he's turned himself into a very good center fielder but we're not talking about Kenny Lofton, Andruw Jones numbers here fellas.  He's got 8 errors, and on occasion falls asleep out there, also he's got a very good arm but not a cannon.  Carl's done more spectacular stuff in the outfield then BJ.  ALso this BS about BJ not looking like he's hustling is a joke, Carl is 6-2, and when he's running there is no question about it.

This is a business you've got to think about the Rays business sense.  If I go up and down the rays roster right now and say 'hmmm, what do the rays need for next year to contend again, and who can they get rid of...'  You've also got to understand baseball a bit to think like that, so for example Carl Crawford would be tougher to dump right now with his $5M a year salary to BJ with his $400k salary.  The team needs more right handed bats preferrably one with pop, and stronger consistent relievers.  Who could you use for trade bait to get something meaningful in the off-season- Edwin Jackson, BJ Upton, and JP Howell.  The rest of the players on the roster either are not talented enough to be traded, or they've got fat salaries, or both.  Mark my words one of those three will be gone in the off-season, if not all three, and the Rays will get a truckload for them.  The reason is simple, none of the three represent an enormous value for the Rays in the future, but they are tremendously valuable as trade bait because they are absolutely bargains for their ability.

[Bullpride08]

aki really isnt a leadoff hitter.  he doesnt run well and doesnt draw too many walks. 

BJ has a much better OBP.  bein why do you insist on saying we cant keep all 3.  and they dont have to hit 1-2-3. 

BJ can lead off, CC hit 2nd, and Aki can hit 7th.

point is...im not ready to just give up on this kid because he is a MAJOR talent. 

So is delmon young and elijah dukes but we got rid of them because of their attitude too.

And because we could value trade them.  It's very easy to ship out major league talents like Young, Upton, or Dukes when they're still working under their original major league contract.  Teams are getting major league production at a bargain basement price.  Now when you've got a guy like Crawford and he's making $5M, suddenly that's not a bargain, teams analyze more, they're cautious for what they give up.

Again, we're not the yankees, Aki makes $2.4M, that is to much dollars for the Rays to surrender for a 7-9 hitter.  Presently their hitters at 7-9 are making $400k (Bartlett), Navarro ($412k), $400k (Zobrist), Hinske ($800k), Aybar at ($400k), and Gross at ($400k)....get the pic, Aki makes nearly more than all of them combined.  The rays have to think and work smart, not hard, especially since Garza and I believe Navarro are coming up for contract.  The Rays would be foolish to let either go, and to me both have better long-term value and neither are trade bait because of their contract expirations.

[Bullshiznitz]

Wow, how quickly things change and fans can be so fickle. 

One, to throw BJ in with the lot of Delmon and Dukes is absolutely ridiculous.  Delmon threw a bat at an ump and fought with teammates.  Dukes threatened peoples lives and fought with managers/teammates throughout his career.  The worst BJ is guilty of is being a little lacksadaisical, of which he's atleast been a man and admitted his mistakes (not blamed others like the former two). 

Two, BJ won't be traded next offseason because he is exactly the type of player the Rays would be looking for.  He's young, a tremendous defensive OF, under team control for 3 more years, and has 20/30 potential at the plate.  To trade that away because he jogs to first base on rare occasional would be moronic.  Yes, his average has struggled a bit this year, but you're talking about a player still only in his second full season.  He leads the team in OBP at .380, and in SB's.  A OBP that high is normally a sign that his BA will eventually float higher than it is now (considering his above average plate discipline).  Teams would kill to have a player that would put up 80R+ 70RBI+ 30SB+ with a .380OBP+ for the league minimum (which is what BJ will still be at next year). 

Saying BJ isnt a number 3 hitter isnt BJ's fault....it would be Maddon for putting him there.  To attempt to trade him for a "TRUE" number 3 hitter, would be doing exactly the opposite of what this franchise needs to do to compete with the Yanks/Red sox.  Any true number 3 hitter, is most likely already a player who's hit free agency.  BJ could pull in a Jason Bay, or a Johnny Damon, or even an Ichiro.....but all those players are making more $$, and players who the Rays would have for less years than BJ.  The only player that would remotely make sense, would possibly be Corey Hart for the Brewers.  But even then, you're not really getting a full upgrade.  Hart has one more year of experience, so he hits arbitration this offseason, and while having more power (18HR's this year) and a higher average (.286), he's not as good defensively and lacks the plate discipline that BJ has (only has a .321 OBP to BJ's .380 OBP).  You could throw in youngsters like Andre Ethier...but then your hoping for development into a #3 type hitter - the same as you would with BJ (and Ethier has less overall upside).  If you can find a player that makes sense, than please state your case. 

Going into next year.....the Rays have the same problems they have this year.....a need for a full time RF (which is another reason why the Rays won't trade BJ - as we lack immediate help in the OF from our minors)....thats about it.  The only players the Rays stand to lose next year will be Al Reyes (already gone), Hinske and possibly a few players who are out of minor league options (Hammel, Guzman, etc.....).  Navarro & Bartlett just start Arbitration next year, and Garza doesnt start for another 2 years.  The real trades the Rays we need to make involve pitching.....and we could quit possibly fill that number 3 slot in the lineup by the RF we would acquire in the trade.  Going into next year we already have Kazmir, Shields & Garza in the top 3 in the rotation - and you would have EJax, Sonnanstine, Price, Wade Davis, Neimmann, Mitch Talbot and Hammell competing to fill out the final 2.  Thats too many pieces than they have spots (even in the minors).  I think its much more likely to see a trade like EJax and Brignac for Corey Hart or Markakis (from Balt) than to see BJ dealt. 

[Bullpride08]

Wow, how quickly things change and fans can be so fickle.   

One, to throw BJ in with the lot of Delmon and Dukes is absolutely ridiculous.  Delmon threw a bat at an ump and fought with teammates.  Dukes threatened peoples lives and fought with managers/teammates throughout his career.  The worst BJ is guilty of is being a little lacksadaisical, of which he's atleast been a man and admitted his mistakes (not blamed others like the former two). 

Two, BJ won't be traded next offseason because he is exactly the type of player the Rays would be looking for.  He's young, a tremendous defensive OF, under team control for 3 more years, and has 20/30 potential at the plate.   To trade that away because he jogs to first base on rare occasional would be moronic.  Yes, his average has struggled a bit this year, but you're talking about a player still only in his second full season.   He leads the team in OBP at .380, and in SB's.  A OBP that high is normally a sign that his BA will eventually float higher than it is now (considering his above average plate discipline).  Teams would kill to have a player that would put up 80R+ 70RBI+ 30SB+ with a .380OBP+ for the league minimum (which is what BJ will still be at next year). 

Saying BJ isnt a number 3 hitter isnt BJ's fault....it would be Maddon for putting him there.  To attempt to trade him for a "TRUE" number 3 hitter, would be doing exactly the opposite of what this franchise needs to do to compete with the Yanks/Red sox.   Any true number 3 hitter, is most likely already a player who's hit free agency.  BJ could pull in a Jason Bay, or a Johnny Damon, or even an Ichiro.....but all those players are making more $$, and players who the Rays would have for less years than BJ.   The only player that would remotely make sense, would possibly be Corey Hart for the Brewers.  But even then, you're not really getting a full upgrade.  Hart has one more year of experience, so he hits arbitration this offseason, and while having more power (18HR's this year) and a higher average (.286), he's not as good defensively and lacks the plate discipline that BJ has (only has a .321 OBP to BJ's .380 OBP).  You could throw in youngsters like Andre Ethier...but then your hoping for development into a #3 type hitter - the same as you would with BJ (and Ethier has less overall upside).  If you can find a player that makes sense, than please state your case. 

Going into next year.....the Rays have the same problems they have this year.....a need for a full time RF (which is another reason why the Rays won't trade BJ - as we lack immediate help in the OF from our minors)....thats about it.   The only players the Rays stand to lose next year will be Al Reyes (already gone), Hinske and possibly a few players who are out of minor league options (Hammel, Guzman, etc.....).  Navarro & Bartlett just start Arbitration next year, and Garza doesnt start for another 2 years.   The real trades the Rays we need to make involve pitching.....and we could quit possibly fill that number 3 slot in the lineup by the RF we would acquire in the trade.   Going into next year we already have Kazmir, Shields & Garza in the top 3 in the rotation - and you would have EJax, Sonnanstine, Price, Wade Davis, Neimmann, Mitch Talbot and Hammell competing to fill out the final 2.  Thats too many pieces than they have spots (even in the minors).  I think its much more likely to see a trade like EJax and Brignac for Corey Hart or Markakis (from Balt) than to see BJ dealt. 

Lots of good points, and you're right that we've got enough pitching next year to shop with to give us that #3, and a closer but still keep BJ for a year or more (you can't keep to long if BJ doesn't want to be here, and comparing him to Delmon had everything to do with Delmon's statements that he was walking the moment he got his chance so the Rays sent him packing at the best time, BJ has turned down offers from the Rays and presently hasn't wanted to negotiate).  I think Maddon putting him at #3 wasn't arbitrary though, BJ's active bat with pop last year made him appear like the #3 batter they wanted Crawford to be but he never became.  This year BJ's bat is more reminscent of a lead-off or #2 hitter.  He is very disciplined, and savvy at the plate but I was hoping this year he'd be that #3 he was last year when he had a SLG of .518, his OBP is great but we would rather see that SLG north of .500 like last year then his current .390 SLG...perhaps it's we've got to see what type of player BJ is going to be, it's real odd to see such a change...last year we saw serious potent strength, this year he's more singles, walks, and steals.  Maybe the team trades Aki, and EJax who's had some great outings and his trade value, with AKi could net us the #3 and closer.

Also when you talk about starting pitching don't forget to mention Jeremy Hellickson.  He's with the Biscuits now, and definitely not major league ready yet, but his last four outings since being called up to Montgomery have been much better than his first six.  Jeremy has a good shot if he keeps progressing to make the Bull's roster for 09', or at least make it difficult not to promote him to Durham sometime next year, thus making it more crowded and almost forcing the Rays to trade at least one of their starting aces.  Especially when Wade Davis, and Talbot are on the verge as well.

[Bullshiznitz]

I understand where you're coming from, but the best we would stand to gain from trading BJ would be to gain an extra 2 years from a player at best (if its a rookie with no ML experience).....and in doing that you're risking taking a step back because of the uncertainty of any prospect. 

Right now looking forward we have BJ atleast through 2011, and Carl Crawford in LF through 2010 ($8.25M 2009, $10M 2010)....with an opening in RF.  If the Rays are looking to remain competetive while staying in the $45-$60 Million dollar range....then in reality they will need to unload Crawford soon.  As you pointed out, it will be more difficult because of his salary and lack of team control (only 2 years), but that is also offset by his perceived worth (which outweighs his true worth).  CC's into his 6th full year, and I think what we have is about as good as its going to get for CC.  Which isnt bad.....but not really worth $10M for. 

Personally, I rather see them ride it out with Crawford (and possibly with BJ) through their contracts.  With the new Type A free agent compensation (1 1st Rd, 1 Sandwich pick - between the 1st Rd & 2nd Rd), it hurts less to lose free agents than it used to.  This team could legitimately contend for the playoffs and world series for atleast through 2010 (Crawford and Penas last years). 

I think the hope would be that they can have the organization depth to replace some of those players when that time comes (Desmond Jennings if he ever stays healthy is a Carl Crawfordlike clone).  What they don't have now, hopefully they could acquire through trading some of our pitching depth.  Even beyond the pitchers I mentioned and J  Hell (like you stated - which in my opinion is better than Davis or McGee).....you still have pitchers like Nick Barnese, Heath Rollins & Jake McGee (if he can come back from surgery) another season or 2 behind them (Even the possibility of Wade Townsend who seems to be getting it back together down in Vero Beach).  They won't be able to use them all, so might as well fill your holes with the most sought after commodity in baseball.  If they are able to do that over the next year, then there might not be a pressing need for ML ready talent once Crawford and BJ are prepared to bolt.... and we can take the draft picks and rebuild the lower levels, while still going after the big enchilada through 2010. 

[Matt]

trading Upton this early in his career would be foolish.

[Bullpride08]

trading Upton this early in his career would be foolish.

Well trading BJ, if they decided to that in the off-season, wouldn't be foolish necessarily if they got the right goods for it.  Delmon Young, a trade I was initially leery about, netted us Matt Garza, who was the Twins best pitching prospect.  Theoretically BJ could bring a lot because he's a five point talent that has shown so much range and flexibility in the field, at the plate, and on the base path....but I regress and bullshiznitz brought up some great and compelling points about keeping BJ and using some of the pitchers to lure a RF.  I actually do agree with bullshiznitz's position on Carl Crawford, even though he's my favorite player, he seems to have peaked, is a tad brittle, and really doesn't put tons of off-season work in to be the best so theoretically we're basically getting the best we'll probably ever get out of Crawford, which isn't bad, but with his fat salary and strong trade value, we could net more or equal skill and lose the fattest salary on the roster.

But in the end, it's probably better if the team keeps BJ, and Crawford at least through next year, and evaluate all their pitching prospects in the off-season to determine who they could trade to grab an able bodied RF, with some pop to his bat, and that bats Righty. 

BTW, Aybar has become the valued infield utility we needed too.  This team has very little weaknesses overall at the plate which is why a few key trades could shore up RF and this team's potential for 2009.

[Singabull]

trading Upton this early in his career would be foolish.

Well trading BJ, if they decided to that in the off-season, wouldn't be foolish necessarily if they got the right goods for it.  Delmon Young, a trade I was initially leery about, netted us Matt Garza, who was the Twins best pitching prospect.  Theoretically BJ could bring a lot because he's a five point talent that has shown so much range and flexibility in the field, at the plate, and on the base path....but I regress and bullshiznitz brought up some great and compelling points about keeping BJ and using some of the pitchers to lure a RF.  I actually do agree with bullshiznitz's position on Carl Crawford, even though he's my favorite player, he seems to have peaked, is a tad brittle, and really doesn't put tons of off-season work in to be the best so theoretically we're basically getting the best we'll probably ever get out of Crawford, which isn't bad, but with his fat salary and strong trade value, we could net more or equal skill and lose the fattest salary on the roster.

But in the end, it's probably better if the team keeps BJ, and Crawford at least through next year, and evaluate all their pitching prospects in the off-season to determine who they could trade to grab an able bodied RF, with some pop to his bat, and that bats Righty. 

BTW, Aybar has become the valued infield utility we needed too.  This team has very little weaknesses overall at the plate which is why a few key trades could shore up RF and this team's potential for 2009.

Man, your posts are too long.

Anyway, I agree.  We could trade this @sshole and some prospects for a premier outfielder.