"Returning Production" (updated) :)

[Outlaw]

15 minutes ago, NewEnglandBull said:

No way, it’s primarily circumstantial at best. You listen  to almost every ex-player and NHL executive and they say the same thing. Please read: 
 

Hockey Analytics: Ditching Plus Minus

 

 

As a hockey player there are guys that dig pucks out in corners and make the first pass to set up the goal but since there are only the last two passes they get assist they dont get one. There are defenseman that are really good getting pucks out of the zone to the forwards and don't get assist 1/2 and the +/- really lets you see which players make players better around them.

[NewEnglandBull]

16 minutes ago, Outlaw said:

As a hockey player there are guys that dig pucks out in corners and make the first pass to set up the goal but since there are only the last two passes they get assist they dont get one. There are defenseman that are really good getting pucks out of the zone to the forwards and don't get assist 1/2 and the +/- really lets you see which players make players better around them.

Also, as a hockey player, I’ve been a part of teams with two strong forwards who control the puck so well they have made a weak defenseman look better than what they really are. Then they leave for another team and they look pedestrian at best. I’ll give you it may be useful for the stay at home defenseman but that’s about it. Many in NHL management and players find it useless:

“It is] the most useless statistic ever devised,” says Brian Burke, President of Hockey Operations for the Calgary Flames. “It’s pretty simple. If your team stinks, so does your plus-minus. And it’s compounded if you play against the opposition’s top players.”

Plenty of players have gone on record over the years to voice their disdain for it. When asked about it this past March, Boston Bruins defenceman Torey Krug said that he personally hates itand finds it to be misleading.

Edited June 29, 2022 by NewEnglandBull

[DELdaBull]

I would LOVE to see production 

[NewEnglandBull]

Just now, DELdaBull said:

I would LOVE to see production 

Ok, here you go:

[Outlaw]

48 minutes ago, NewEnglandBull said:

Also, as a hockey player, I’ve been a part of teams with two strong forwards who control the puck so well they have made a weak defenseman look better than what they really are. Then they leave for another team and they look pedestrian at best. I’ll give you it may be useful for the stay at home defenseman but that’s about it. Many in NHL management and players find it useless:

“It is] the most useless statistic ever devised,” says Brian Burke, President of Hockey Operations for the Calgary Flames. “It’s pretty simple. If your team stinks, so does your plus-minus. And it’s compounded if you play against the opposition’s top players.”

Plenty of players have gone on record over the years to voice their disdain for it. When asked about it this past March, Boston Bruins defenceman Torey Krug said that he personally hates itand finds it to be misleading.

Yeah I know a lot of former and current players don't like advanced statistics or corsi analytics in hockey.

[Triple B]

1 hour ago, NewEnglandBull said:

Also, as a hockey player, I’ve been a part of teams with two strong forwards who control the puck so well they have made a weak defenseman look better than what they really are. Then they leave for another team and they look pedestrian at best. I’ll give you it may be useful for the stay at home defenseman but that’s about it. Many in NHL management and players find it useless:

“It is] the most useless statistic ever devised,” says Brian Burke, President of Hockey Operations for the Calgary Flames. “It’s pretty simple. If your team stinks, so does your plus-minus. And it’s compounded if you play against the opposition’s top players.”

Plenty of players have gone on record over the years to voice their disdain for it. When asked about it this past March, Boston Bruins defenceman Torey Krug said that he personally hates itand finds it to be misleading.

Are power plays included in the +/-?

[Skingraft]

If we poop the bed, I may start hooking again to pay for a new coach

[Bulls On Parade]

While we return alot of players from a 2 win team I hope we see alot of new faces on the defense this season. 

Offense will put up good numbers if the OL just plays avg at pass protection and above avg at run blocking I believe. 

[John Lewis]

Tell that to the players who are not going to light up the score sheet.

I'll use the case of Bowen Byram from the Avalanche. He's obviously not going to score at the same rate as Cale Makar. Makar averaged scoring 1 more point per game in the playoffs (20 more points in 20 games) than Byram. However, I thought Byram was vastly underrated in his play. Byram played 1:30 minutes less per game at even strength that Makar, yet he was a +15 to Makar's +7.

It's not as meaningless a stat as you would like to make it out to be.

[NewEnglandBull]

39 minutes ago, John Lewis said:

Tell that to the players who are not going to light up the score sheet.

I'll use the case of Bowen Byram from the Avalanche. He's obviously not going to score at the same rate as Cale Makar. Makar averaged scoring 1 more point per game in the playoffs (20 more points in 20 games) than Byram. However, I thought Byram was vastly underrated in his play. Byram played 1:30 minutes less per game at even strength that Makar, yet he was a +15 to Makar's +7.

It's not as meaningless a stat as you would like to make it out to be.

If your telling me one player is superior than another based on +|- that will always get an eye roll from most in the hockey world. A bit dated but here is another player perspective:

Mark Stuart carried the Jets’ team-worst goal differential of the 13 defenders when looking at even strength (-3), power play (+0), and penalty kill (-19). He ended the season with the 6th-best plus/minus, with a +5 rating.

Stuart logged huge minutes on the penalty kill and essentially none on the power play. This, plus empty net goals, skewed his plus/minus up despite being the worst differential player in essentially all the situations.