Pictures of the brutality....

[GarySJ]

YES it is tradition

No, it's not.

According to Merriam Webster (jeezus, I can't believe I have to cite the freaking dictionary on this) the definition of "tradition" that best fits this situation is "a mode of thought or behavior followed by a people continuously from generation to generation; a custom or usage."

The reference to the 29-29 Yale-Harvard tie proves my point perfectly. That was one of the greatest games in college football history, in a heated rivalry, and I think it also decided an Ivy League title. Running onto the field was not a "tradition", it was a spontaneous act brought about by the amazing circumstances the crowd witnessed. If they did it every game, or every year, you might have a point. But as it is, you don't.

Field-charging isn't any more a tradition in college football than fan fistfights are a tradition at NBA games.

and yes it is gonna happen

No, it's not. I've seen plenty of cases where field-storming was not allowed, and the fans complied.

And aside from very very very very rare instances it's harmless

No, injuries in this sort of thing are not rare, much less "rare" with a number of verys in front of it. Any time you have a large number of uncontrolled, fired-up individuals, the potential for trouble and injury is large. Don't make me post a list.

so either accept this fun yet harmless activity or don't allow the games to happen on your property.

This is like saying, "either accept graffiti, or don't build walls." Give me a break. You start with the assumption that you're going to do whatever you feel like doing, and if the rightful owners of the property that gets damaged in the process don't like it, it's some kind of personality flaw on their part. This is childish, self-centered thinking.

I guess where I'm going with this is that when we know something will occur then a little prudence is in order.

I agree. When the stadium policy says stay off the field, you should stay off the field.

[BULLheaded]

No, it's not.

According to Merriam Webster (jeezus, I can't believe I have to cite the freaking dictionary on this) the definition of "tradition" that best fits this situation is "a mode of thought or behavior followed by a people continuously from generation to generation; a custom or usage."

The reference to the 29-29 Yale-Harvard tie proves my point perfectly. That was one of the greatest games in college football history, in a heated rivalry, and I think it also decided an Ivy League title. Running onto the field was not a "tradition", it was a spontaneous act brought about by the amazing circumstances the crowd witnessed. If they did it every game, or every year, you might have a point. But as it is, you don't.

Field-charging isn't any more a tradition in college football than fan fistfights are a tradition at NBA games.

No, it's not. I've seen plenty of cases where field-storming was not allowed, and the fans complied.

No, injuries in this sort of thing are not rare, much less "rare" with a number of verys in front of it. Any time you have a large number of uncontrolled, fired-up individuals, the potential for trouble and injury is large. Don't make me post a list.

This is like saying, "either accept graffiti, or don't build walls." Give me a break. You start with the assumption that you're going to do whatever you feel like doing, and if the rightful owners of the property that gets damaged in the process don't like it, it's some kind of personality flaw on their part. This is childish, self-centered thinking.

I agree. When the stadium policy says stay off the field, you should stay off the field.

ok gary your right, it's not a tradition at all and it hardly happened in college football and will not keep hapening...and of course fist fighting in the NBA is a GREAT comparison, why didn't I think of that connection :

no gary don't accept graffiti, beat the crap out of the person doing it, better yet why not just shoot them I'm sure the crime warrants that type of punishment.

btw, I'm sure that if you build in a particular area that is prone to graffiti you would be doing so understanding what's going to happen...or am I wrong there too?

again your right, why try to actually think of something that may work given the reality of a situation when we can just put our hands over our eyes and pretend things are different then they really are. After all they should act a certain way so therefore they will act that way right? And if they don't act that way just beat em up! Won't change anything but **** it I bet you'll feel one heck of a lot better!

[Bobcat99]

Field-charging isn't any more a tradition in college football than fan fistfights are a tradition at NBA games.

That's officially the stupidest thing I've ever read on this board, and I've read every one of smazza's posts.

How many college football games have you attended? Eight? I've been to probably fifteen games where fans stormed the field, and there were never any problems as after they got out there, they calmed down and went on their way. I'm only 27. I've seen it happen at Michigan's Big House, the Horseshoe in Columbus, at BGSU, UT, Ohio (many times), Miami... not to mention high school games and NCAA Division III games I'm not even counting.

[Guest Heide]

These, "kids", willfully violated the law.

I willfully broke the law today driving 71 in a 65...luckily (I guess) I was only ticketed as the law requires.  I wasn't tackled, beaten and tazered.  I guess I'm the lucky one.

[GarySJ]

People on the field are being arrested for trespass... so law enforcement officers have every right to use force against them... they can sue for damages if they believe the police abused their force (see King, Rodney)

You know, that's the bottom line to all this. We can bicker all day about the Great College Tradition of Field Storming : but the facts remain that:

A. Fans aren't allowed on the field at RJS.

B. Police/security at RJS has the right to detain fans who violate rule A.

C. If police/security at RJS oversteps its bounds in the process of enforcing rule A, the fans have legal recourse.

If there is anything to these claims of police brutality, it'll turn up in the legal system soon enough.

[sdgukhsdgl]

Once again, I agree.  

However,

Force > Harm

therein is my problem.  The court system constantly uses a balancing test to determine the right of the parties involved in litigation.  

Going on the filed is against the law, but using this analysis, what harm is it really causing?  Stay with me.  I'm talking in a legal sense.  Not civil liability.  The legislature passed this law for a reason.  Using this legislative intent, do you think they pondered students rushing the field to celebrate their teams greatest victory?  No, of course not.  Therefore, look at the harm caused to society from this particular violation.  I would feel it would be nominal at best and there is still civil liability for the owners of Ray Jay for any damages caused by individuals.  

Therefore, when the harm to society is minimal, is there a right to use force to prevent this nominal harm?  

You are saying yes, I say no.  I guess we are both entitled to our opinions.  While I feel those in violation of the law should be penalized, the penalty should be equal to the harm.  Prosecutors use broad discretion, for good reason, when charging individuals with crimes.  I know many, and I think they would be surprised at the actions of the police that night as well.  I would be very surprised if any of these people are ACTUALLY tried for any of these trespassing crimes.  I’m rambling….I could go on forever….I need to get something done today….

but whats the title of the statue? did it evolve from the common law? what if they dont go voluntarily?? is a strict liabilty crime?  

god i felt like i was back in crim law again....

fwiw, battery does not require illegal touching, only harmful or offensive so the coverage is more broad than illegal

just finished reading through the rest of this thread and dont make me break out my crim law book now damnit

none of this is really directed at anyone, just random thoughts from the thread and didnt want to make 5 different posts

[BullEE]

The intent of the students was not to destroy property.  Therefore why does the police have to treat them like they were.  I guarantee you there are college football fans in the PD who have seen storming from the fans onto the field either because they were there or at least saw it on TV.  Those who haven't I assume that they have been briefed on the phenomena.  The comment about about having soccer hooligans go against TPD and TSA, I should have elaborated on a little more.  I saw cops and rent-a-cops treating a bunch of students who just wanted to celebrate with their fellow school mates like they were hooligans.   My point is that TPD and TSA were bullying students who in their minds were not going to do anything wrong.  They were not going to destroy property or fight.  I would like to see the TSA and TPD officials have a "come-uppance" (sp?) by having to deal with real hooligans.  People who would storm the field to fight, riot in the stands, and through fire bombs and other object at opposing players during a match.  I do applaud European police for having to deal with this on a weekly basis during soccer season.  It seems they can get a lot of it under control before people seriously get hurt or killed.  Sometimes these riots will spread throughout a city very quickly.  The police and TSA officials were treating the students like they were going to do the same.  We have never had any incidents involving riots after a sporting event in this city as far as I can remember.  Why do they think that it would happen now.  

The TSA should have not been involved at all.  The "professionals" were there so let them handle it.  The police have the authority if they are properly trained they will deal with it.  TSA's involvement is what is making me angry at the incident.  The cops were bad enough in their behavior, but TSA was completely out of line.  The TSA officials who were involved need to be punished.  If they are not fired outright, then they need to be reassigned to other duties, like trash detail.  The cops did not have to use such force.  If it was such a crime why didn't they just go to  the 4 access tunnels and the 4 staircases and wait for the offenders.  Where were the students going to go.  Where they going to reclimb the wall to escape?

As far as the students getting what they deserved, several members of this board and probably a bunch of lurkers who read it charged the field and got away with it.  Do you people think that someone like B. Diddy or DMince needed to be beaten because they broke the rules.  What about some of the students who were jawing with the police and were swiped at by batons and had tazers point at them?  Do some of you honestly believe that the students deserved broken hands if the cops were successful with their swipes or tazered because the cop had an itchy trigger finger.  

John Q Law has to follow the rules as well.  They are supposed to "serve and protect" not "brutalize and maim."  They should have seen this coming.  Authority figures are not alow to bully people.  Remember, in this country everyone is free AND EQUAL.  The authority figures are the same as us.  They must follow the same laws.  THEY ARE NOT ABOVE US NOR SHOULD THEY ACT LIKE IT.  Any cop who acts like they are superior to the populace needs to have their badge taken away.  These guys give the rest of the police force a bad name.

 

It seems that the administration who paid to rent the field, the taxpayers who pay for the field who were in attendance (students, alum, and fans), and even the team wanted the students to come onto the field.  The cops should have known that if USF won the students were going to charge.  If they had a problem with this why didn't they choose an alternative to having the students jump the walls.  Why didn't TPD come up with a solution such as allowing the students to come onto the field via the staircases along the corners in an orderly direction.  The only stipulations being that there were to be no fights between students, fans, alum, players or TSA, and no property destruction.  That would have been a lot more proactive.  The cops would have been seen as good people, the students would have chance to celebrate with the players, no one would have been hurt, and everyone would have gone home happy.  Maybe they should implement tis or something similiar, maybe that could be a tradition.  After every home win allowing the students, fans, alum, etc.  to go onto the field in a safe and orderly manner in order to celebrate the win.  The cops can protect the goal posts and keep fights from breaking out.  If there are too many incidents then the "privilege" would end for that season.

As far as those who are so high and mighty getting on the students cases about storming the field and trespassing, I;m sure you are totally innocent of all crimes.  I'm sure you never speed while on the road, or run the occasional red light.   : I'm sure you never jay walked, changed lanes without signaling, or drove drunk.  :  And I am absolutely sure that you never did anything stupid when you were young.   :  Just because you didn't get caught doesn't mean you didn't break a law.  So get off your hgih horses, you are just as guilty as everyone else.  You are born into this world naked and crying, you pay taxes, you die just like EVERYONE ELSE.  In the mean time you do good things and you do bad things, and in the end it doesn't matter one bit.  In the end you will be judged, but it won't be by the people on this board or by any government authority so quit acting all high and mighty and please quit trying to vilify students who are just being people.

Have a nice evening  8)

PS: Jim, I see that you post quite frequently during the day.  I hope that you are not working at those times, on break, or are self-employed.  If you are, I hope you are not charging your company or your customers for that time that you are on here, because that would be a violation of ethics and/or stealing.  I'll let Zonald fill you in on some of those laws.   ;D Peace?

[sdgukhsdgl]

" The intent of the students was not to destroy property."

my professors would roast you for that statement....

[Guest]

The intent of the students was not to destroy property.  

I'm sorry.  Did you read anything about intent to destroy property in the trespass laws?  Oh, there is a section on that - but it has to deal with a higher degree of crime if you trespass with the intent to commit another crime.

Trespassing is a crime -- even if you have the best intentions.

And how are law enforcement officers supposed to know?

The answer is, they don't.  Therefore, they have to assume that anyone who storms the field is as bad as any English Soccer Hooligan -- B. Diddy and Dmince included.

If B.Diddy or Dmince had resisted arrest -- and it doesn't seem like they did -- then they would deserve to be tasered.  Just because they got away with it doesn't mean they were innocent (see Simpson, Orenthal James).

My point is that TPD and TSA were bullying students who in their minds were not going to do anything wrong.

But they were doing something wrong.  Just because they were either ignorant of the law or indifferent to it doesn't mean they were right to break the law.

They were not going to destroy property or fight.  I would like to see the TSA and TPD officials have a "come-uppance" (sp?) by having to deal with real hooligans.  People who would storm the field to fight, riot in the stands, and through fire bombs and other object at opposing players during a match.  

You want them to square off with UCF fans ?? ;-) ;-) ;-)

The TSA should have not been involved at all.

So, you're saying that the people that actually own the property should not be involved ???

The cops did not have to use such force.  If it was such a crime why didn't they just go to  the 4 access tunnels and the 4 staircases and wait for the offenders.  Where were the students going to go.  Where they going to reclimb the wall to escape?

They couldn't wait beause they didn't know what other crimes these students were going to commit.  They already flouted the law once, were they going to commit assualt and battery on the Louisville coaches??

Think about other situations... should people be allowed to take guns onto airplanes if they have no intention of hurting people (like if they are going on a hunting trip in Wyoming)??  What about driving drunk when there are no cars on the road??

John Q Law has to follow the rules as well.  They are supposed to "serve and protect" not "brutalize and maim."  They should have seen this coming.  Authority figures are not alow to bully people.

Using force to apprehend criminals is NOT bullying.  If they did use excessive force, the departments have procedures for working these out AND the victims can seek justice in court.

Remember, in this country everyone is free AND EQUAL.  The authority figures are the same as us.  They must follow the same laws.

Oh, so NOW you want people to obey the law??  But the students can break it?? : : :

IMO the officers and security guards didn't break the law by tackling people... and if the person(s) tazered were resisting arrest, that would be acceptible as well.

As far as those who are so high and mighty getting on the students cases about storming the field and trespassing, I'm sure you are totally innocent of all crimes.  I'm sure you never speed while on the road, or run the occasional red light.   : I'm sure you never jay walked, changed lanes without signaling, or drove drunk.  :  And I am absolutely sure that you never did anything stupid when you were young.   :  Just because you didn't get caught doesn't mean you didn't break a law.  So get off your hgih horses, you are just as guilty as everyone else.  You are born into this world naked and crying, you pay taxes, you die just like EVERYONE ELSE.  In the mean time you do good things and you do bad things, and in the end it doesn't matter one bit.  In the end you will be judged, but it won't be by the people on this board or by any government authority so quit acting all high and mighty and please quit trying to vilify students who are just being people.

I'm not stupid enough to speed IN FRONT OF A ROW OF STATE TROOPERS AND SHERIFF'S DEPUTIES WARNING ME NOT TO.   ;D ;D ;D

I am not vilifying the students... I am saying that the students were not innocent people beating beaten by "the man."  They were criminals being apprehended.

PS: Jim, I see that you post quite frequently during the day.  I hope that you are not working at those times, on break, or are self-employed.  If you are, I hope you are not charging your company or your customers for that time that you are on here, because that would be a violation of ethics and/or stealing.  I'll let Zonald fill you in on some of those laws.   ;D Peace?

Why should you care when I post or what I am doing?  First, the only ethics "laws" deal with public employees.  I am not a public employee.  Second, it is not stealing to bill for 'work' when I am posting, that would be fraud -- maybe Zonald can explain the difference to you.  Nevertheless, I do not bill clients for the time spent here so I can post what I want when I want to...

I love my job!!  ;D 8) ;D ;D :D

[Zonald]

Why should you care when I post or what I am doing?  First, the only ethics "laws" deal with public employees.  I am not a public employee.  Second, it is not stealing to bill for 'work' when I am posting, that would be fraud -- maybe Zonald can explain the difference to you.  Nevertheless, I do not bill clients for the time spent here so I can post what I want when I want to...

I love my job!!  ;D 8) ;D ;D :D

Geesh, how did I get involved here too?! lol.   Nice post Jim, good points.  There are a lot of opinions here which is nice.

I think my opinion is known.

I passed my ethics exam last month and can practice law in any state from an ethical standpoint!  GO ME!   ;D ;D ;D

I'm done with my statutory research for the day!!