Why Sterlin Gilbert WILL NOT Change His System - Charlie Strong

[IBulleve]

5 minutes ago, BucsandBulls said:

I would have liked more production on 1st down. 100%. But to hammer on Charlie's quote we would have to go back and rewatch every first down play and see what defense they were in. I'm sure we ran it a couple times when they loaded the box, we also passed a few times when they dropped 8 into coverage.

As far as your stat...the two biggest of those losing plays were runs to the outside. Something people on here had been clamoring for. And your stat is skewed because sacks are counted as running plays in college football as well. The best thing about a run up the middle is the limited downside which can kill a drive. 

We tried getting creative (outside run, pass) on 1st down and 6 times it failed us. That will make an OC stop getting fancy on 1st down real fast.

 

Just because they tried to run the ball outside doesn't simply invalidate everyone's concerns. It's the lack of creativity in the run game, whether it's inside or outside zone. Zero misdirection on those run plays. Did we even run the jet sweep action, zone play like we did against Tulane? Serious question, I don't remember. 

[Wildrover]

it all does sort of beg the question though, why would strong hire a guy that has a background of running a spread offense and then not let him do what he's good at?  Why would Gilbert want to work for a guy who won't let him run the offense he wants?  This is his second stint with Im after all, why follow Strong to USF after what happened at UT? 

[Bull94]

15 minutes ago, BucsandBulls said:

I would have liked more production on 1st down. 100%. But to hammer on Charlie's quote we would have to go back and rewatch every first down play and see what defense they were in. I'm sure we ran it a couple times when they loaded the box, we also passed a few times when they dropped 8 into coverage.

As far as your stat...the two biggest of those losing plays were runs to the outside. Something people on here had been clamoring for. And your stat is skewed because sacks are counted as running plays in college football as well. The best thing about a run up the middle is the limited downside which can kill a drive. 

We tried getting creative (outside run, pass) on 1st down and 6 times it failed us. That will make an OC stop getting fancy on 1st down real fast.

 

Q was sacked once on first down according to espn. I did not include that as a run.

 

our first 13 runs on first down went for -4 yards total. 10 of our first down runs went for negative yards or no gain.that didn't stop him there.

 

2 of our first 4 passes on first down each went for 33 yards.

 

13 passes on first down for 156 yards (includes sack)

22 rushes for 15 yards .68 ypc

game plan was to stop the run especially on first down. we played right into their hands.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Bull94

[IBulleve]

 Look/sound familiar? 

[BucsandBulls]

2 minutes ago, Bull94 said:

Q was sacked once on first down according to espn. I did not include that as a run.

 

our first 13 runs on first down went for -4 yards total. 10 of our first down runs went for negative yards or no gain.that didn't stop him there.

 

2 of our first 4 passes on first down each went for 33 yards.

 

13 passes on first down for 156 yards (includes sack)

22 rushes for 15 yards

What do you think makes those first down passes able to go for those yards? It is the defense respecting the run. Its called an intangible which doesn't show up in the stats. 

It is all about risk/reward. Running is low risk low reward. No gain is not the end of the world. Passing is higher risk/higher reward. Again the goal is to score not pickup yards on 1st down. Getting yards on 1st down helps with that absolutely. Many of those runs help you see how they are gameplanning against you on defense or setup other plays. 

Its all a game of what ifs. How do you know if we pass it 5 more times they aren't all picked off? You don't and I can't prove it. 

The fact is we did enough to win and we didn't. So lets make some small adjustments not whole sale changes.

[Bull Dozer]

3 minutes ago, BucsandBulls said:

What do you think makes those first down passes able to go for those yards? It is the defense respecting the run. Its called an intangible which doesn't show up in the stats. 

It is all about risk/reward. Running is low risk low reward. No gain is not the end of the world. Passing is higher risk/higher reward. Again the goal is to score not pickup yards on 1st down. Getting yards on 1st down helps with that absolutely. Many of those runs help you see how they are gameplanning against you on defense or setup other plays. 

Its all a game of what ifs. How do you know if we pass it 5 more times they aren't all picked off? You don't and I can't prove it. 

The fact is we did enough to win and we didn't. So lets make some small adjustments not whole sale changes.

Being more balanced on first down forces the defense to respect the pass and opens things up for the offense as a whole.  As for risk/reward, "scared money don't make money".  When it's painfully predictable what you're doing on first down you often get off schedule and are left with 2nd and 3rd and long situations.   This wouldn't be as big of a problem if we were running more play action on first down because the run naturally sets that up, but we aren't.   A little more diversity on 1st down would go a long way to making this offense more efficient..... 

[George_Bullnard_Shaw]

14 minutes ago, BucsandBulls said:

What do you think makes those first down passes able to go for those yards? It is the defense respecting the run. Its called an intangible which doesn't show up in the stats. 

It is all about risk/reward. Running is low risk low reward. No gain is not the end of the world. Passing is higher risk/higher reward. Again the goal is to score not pickup yards on 1st down. Getting yards on 1st down helps with that absolutely. Many of those runs help you see how they are gameplanning against you on defense or setup other plays. 

Its all a game of what ifs. How do you know if we pass it 5 more times they aren't all picked off? You don't and I can't prove it. 

The fact is we did enough to win and we didn't. So lets make some small adjustments not whole sale changes.

Glad you've finally joined the board Coach Strong.

[Bull94]

30 minutes ago, BucsandBulls said:

What do you think makes those first down passes able to go for those yards? It is the defense respecting the run. Its called an intangible which doesn't show up in the stats. 

It is all about risk/reward. Running is low risk low reward. No gain is not the end of the world. Passing is higher risk/higher reward. Again the goal is to score not pickup yards on 1st down. Getting yards on 1st down helps with that absolutely. Many of those runs help you see how they are gameplanning against you on defense or setup other plays. 

Its all a game of what ifs. How do you know if we pass it 5 more times they aren't all picked off? You don't and I can't prove it. 

The fact is we did enough to win and we didn't. So lets make some small adjustments not whole sale changes.

what makes the pass plays possible is the fact that they are taking away the run. it was their game plan. force us to pass.

first ten first down plays 3 pass 33 yards. 7 runs -2 yards. I'm no genius but if they are taking something away then you do the opposite. he even said something about them stacking the box.

 

the goal on first down(especially in this offense) is to pick up yards so we can get to 3rd and manageable. we had 10 runs on first down that went for 0 or negative yards. that kills this offense. 3rd and long is not where we want to be and yet we have been there all year.

 

all I know is that if you look at average yards per catch on first down and compare it to average yards per carry it was pretty obvious what we should be doing. hypotheticals are dumb. I could say what if they scored 5 TDs on those passes?

 

I'm no fan of this play calling where we think we can impose our will on a team. as others have said it,s not even the mix of run pass but the unimaginative plays both run and pass that are being called.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Bull94

[Bull94]

21 minutes ago, Bull Dozer said:

Being more balanced on first down forces the defense to respect the pass and opens things up for the offense as a whole.  As for risk/reward, "scared money don't make money".  When it's painfully predictable what you're doing on first down you often get off schedule and are left with 2nd and 3rd and long situations.   This wouldn't be as big of a problem if we were running more play action on first down because the run naturally sets that up, but we aren't.   A little more diversity on 1st down would go a long way to making this offense more efficient..... 

exactly. we might as well start 2nd and 10 every time we get the ball. Taggart (and I know different offense) used to open almost every game and quite a few series with a long pass play that would stretch the defense. even if it didn't work it kept the safeties back and opened up the run. prohinited teams from stacking the box. now we just run into the stacked box and set up 3rd and longs and blame it on execution.

[Bull Dozer]

5 minutes ago, Bull94 said:

what makes the pass plays possible is the fact that they are taking away the run. it was their game plan. force us to pass.

first ten first down plays 3 pass 33 yards. 7 runs -2 yards. I'm no genius but if they are taking something away then you do the opposite. he even said something about them stacking the box.

 

the goal on first down(especially in this offense) is to pick up yards so we can get to 3rd and manageable. we had 10 runs on first down that went for 0 or negative yards. that kills this offense. 3rd and long is not where we want to be and yet we have been there all year.

 

all I know is that if you look at average yards per catch on first down and compare it to average yards per carry it was pretty obvious what we should be doing. hypotheticals are dumb.

 

I'm no fan of this play calling where we think we can impose our will on a team. as others have said it,s not even the mix of run pass but the unimaginative plays both run and pass that are being called.

If you're going to do this you have to have a counter play ready to break out often enough to keep the defense honest.  Taggart and company were great at this.  We'd run the WR screen until teams DB's started crashing on it then we'd pump fake it and and hit them over the top.  Same with the inside runs we'd work that until teams sold out to stop it then we'd play action and find Dillon or Wilcox running free up the seam or hit Adams over the top for a big play.   This offense seems to be playing checkers when we need to be playing chess.  

Edited October 30, 2017 by Bull Dozer