Thoughts on rivalries...

[Triple B]

I think if USF makes it to the Sugar Bowl last year, then USF would easily be a Top 25 pre-season this year... (after all WVU made it to the Sugar Bowl and was pre-season Top 5).  I don't know if USF beats Miami or Florida while going 3-8 would mean we are in the Big 4.

The Big 3 are the Big 3 because they are perennial top 25 teams.  To get into the Big 4, USF needs to be a Top 25 team - individual wins and losses become less relevant.

Right, that's what I meant by one of the criteria. It's something that will have to evolve over time ..... probably a long time.

[Guest]

I think if USF makes it to the Sugar Bowl last year, then USF would easily be a Top 25 pre-season this year... (after all WVU made it to the Sugar Bowl and was pre-season Top 5).  I don't know if USF beats Miami or Florida while going 3-8 would mean we are in the Big 4.

The Big 3 are the Big 3 because they are perennial top 25 teams.  To get into the Big 4, USF needs to be a Top 25 team - individual wins and losses become less relevant.

Right, that's what I meant by one of the criteria. It's something that will have to evolve over time ..... probably a long time.

USF doesn't do anything over a "long" time - this is our 10th year after all... in 10 more we should have 2 or 3 national championships... ;-) ;-) ;-)

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I saw you thought it was one of the criteria - I think it's not at all.  I believe getting into the Top 25 a couple of years in a row is the only real criteria - now that may include beating a Big 3 (Miami in 08 or Florida in 09).  That will tell the nation we have arrived.

[Triple B]

both schools just plain don't like each other.

I think that applies to USF and UCF as well...

That is also up for interpretation and debate ....  

[Knight_Light]

 If everyone can think back to a time long long ago and maybe a place far far away called high school, who was your biggest rival?  Usually the school closest to you because you were either friends with alot of people on that roster or have been playing against them since you were little and hate them with a passion.   

Usually, your rival team in HS is in the same confererence or cassification as you are, and you're competing for standings in conference. Let's say you went to a 5-A school in FLA, you're not going to have any real "rivalry" with the 4-A  (or 3-A or 6-A, whatver, you get the point) school down the road from you, no matter how close they might be, and how many players know each other, because you're not in the same division.

Your confusing important game with rivalry.  If we used your definintion here then UF FSU isnt a rivalry.  A rivalry is a game that standings conference titles etc all go out the window, a rivalry is personal and goes deeper then standings rankings etc.  A rivalry is a game that can make your season even if its the only game you win.  

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who would consider FSU-UF a true rivalry before 1978, say, even though they've played each other since the 50's.  It wasn't until both teams began competing at the same level year-in and year-out that it became a rivalry of any importance, especially to UF fans.   Up until that point, FSU was an afterthought, they were bottom feeders that UF didn't really care about, and FSU fans were envious of the success of their conterparts in G'ville, but the game wasn't huge to them either.

So again, it's all about level of play. This is what I was getting at with the conference/division talk in my previous post. Up until '75-'76, I'd say UF-FSU was like a 6-A school playing a neigboring 3-A school and kicking their asses every year. Then over the course of the next several years, that 3-A school upped its enrollment and starting getting better players and coaches, and all of a sudden became a 6-A school on the same level as their opponent.

At this point, UCF is still a step behind USF. Not as drastic as the UF-FSU analogy above, but similar. USF is in the big-leagues already--they've got BCS affiliation, and all they lack is some consistency in recruiting and  play at bowl-worthy level, . UCF still is trying to get to that level.  A rivalry with a *slightly* bigger in-state brother is key to them, while it's not just that big of a deal to USF.  

You must be very young or a Yankee from out-of-state.

FSU-UF WAS a big deal to those living in FLA...even when it started in the 50's...when FSU had to travel 7-8 straight times to G'ville.

Heck...FSU and UF fans that have been around the block awhile still talk about the "Catch/Call" from the game in 1966. FSU fans even have still photos that show the WR was IN BOUNDS in the endzone, but the SEC ref said he wasn't.

The Orlando Sentinel had a nice recap of the FSU-UF rivalry on how it started...here's a look at their first decade of games:

Rivalry took off in '60s

UF-FSU rose in stature later, but these key games stoked the fire.

Mike Huguenin

Sentinel Staff Writer

November 21, 2005

Believe it or not, the Florida-Florida State rivalry began in 1958. While many Gators seem to think UF football began in 1990 and many 'Noles seem to think FSU began playing in the late 1970s, the schools did play football before then.

To impart some knowledge to those folks -- and to help first-year UF Coach Urban Meyer get better acquainted with the rivalry -- the Sentinel is going to highlight key moments from past UF-FSU games. Part 1 looks at three games from the early days:

1960: The game itself was a defensive-minded affair, won 3-0 by the Gators on Sept. 24 in Gainesville in the third game of the series. It's what happened before the game -- in late August, to be precise -- that makes this one memorable. UF FB Jon MacBeth was approached by two men -- one a fraternity brother -- who offered him $1,500 to shave points when the teams met. MacBeth instead went to the police, who arrested the men on game day.

1964: This was the seventh game in the series, but the first in Tallahassee. UF led the series 5-0-1, with the tie coming in 1961 (after which FSU fans rushed the field and tried to tear down the goalposts). Some UF players wore stickers saying, "Never, FSU, Never," on their helmets during the week of practice before the game, and UF's jerseys had the words "Go for Seven" above the numbers for the game. But FSU got its first win in the series, 16-7.

1966: FSU had the ball on UF's 45, trailing 22-19 with 17 seconds left. QB Gary Pajcic launched a pass to the end zone to 6-foot-5 WR Lane Fenner, who appeared to make a miraculous over-the-shoulder catch with his right knee down in the end zone. But field judge Doug Moseley, an SEC official, ruled he was out of bounds. FSU missed a long field goal on the final play of the game that would've tied it.

FYI...here's a Tampa Tribune comment about that same game and photo

http://media.tbo.com/photos/sports/2005/nov/1121fenner.jpg

1. Lane Fenner's non-catch, 1966 (Florida 22, FSU 19)

Posted November 21, 2005 by Joey Johnston

It was another era - before instant replay, before rampant dissection of plays by ESPN’s College GameDay crew, before every Florida and FSU game was televised.

One still photograph was worth a thousand cries of anguish from Seminoles fans. Long-time FSU boosters still have the widely circulated image. It still hangs in the office of FSU president T.K. Wetherell, a former Seminoles wide receiver, and in his box at Doak Campbell Stadium.

Lane Fenner was in!

But just as Seminole fans erupted to celebrate what would’ve been a monumental victory against the Gators, field judge Doug Moseley (an SEC official) gave a different ruling.

Lane Fenner was out!

‘’We thought our world had come to an end,’’ Wetherell said. ‘’There is absolutely and utterly no doubt about what happened on that play. It was a catch.’’

--------------

Florida 22, FSU 19

Posted November 22, 2005 by Joey Johnston

At Tallahassee: Nov. 8, 1966

Steve Spurrier’s 41-yard touchdown pass to Larry Smith put the Gators ahead to stay, but the story had only just begun. No one will forget the finish. FSU’s Gary Pajcic had thrown an apparent game-winning 45-yard TD pass to Lane Fenner with 17 seconds remaining. But field judge Doug Moseley, an SEC official, ruled that Fenner didn’t have possession of the ball before rolling out of bounds. Newspaper photographs were published that showed Fenner catching the pass while landing some 2 feet inside the boundary. The controversy rages on - even 39 years later!

[Jamie]

My thought is that USF doesn't have any rivalries. In fact, there have only been a few teams where USF could have formed a rivalry, except they moved on to a new league or division:

- Georgia Southern

- Western Kentucky (although that was getting one-sided at the end)

- Southern Miss

- TCU (both broke the other's long home winning streaks, one in bizarre fashion)

- Louisville

Of these, we're only likely to play Louisville again, no matter what Brett reports. And even then, I'd say it will still take a few more years of back-and-forth results and at least one controversy to call them a true rival.

That's the thing with UCF that drives people crazy. They've considered USF a rival ever since the Board of Regents let us start a team. That's not how it works, but most UCF fans and apparently the media don't get that. Geography does not equal a rivalry. Look at USC and Notre Dame. Or Florida and Tennessee.

[Knight_Light]

That's not how it works, but most UCF fans and apparently the media don't get that. Geography does not equal a rivalry. Look at USC and Notre Dame. Or Florida and Tennessee.

Really?

So says:

Florida St-Florida

Florida St-Miami

Florida-Georgia

Clemson-South Carolina

Alabama-Auburn

Georgia-Georgia Tech

Ole Miss-Mississippi St

Colorado-Colorado St

Washington-Washington St

UCLA-USC

Penn St-Pitt (sadly, basically dead now)

Va Tech-Virginia

LSU-Ole Miss

Texas-Texas A&M

Should I go on?

Iowa-Iowa St

Michigan-Michigan St

Notre Dame-Purdue

Harvard-Yale

Oregon-Oregon St

Louisville-Kentucky

Oklahoma-Texas

Oklahoma-Oklahome St

Yeah...Geography has nothing to do with rivalries (yes, there are some NATIONAL Rivalries...but most are LOCAL/REGIONAL in nature)

[Guest]

My thought is that USF doesn't have any rivalries. In fact, there have only been a few teams where USF could have formed a rivalry, except they moved on to a new league or division:

- Georgia Southern

- Western Kentucky (although that was getting one-sided at the end)

- Southern Miss

- TCU (both broke the other's long home winning streaks, one in bizarre fashion)

- Louisville

Of these, we're only likely to play Louisville again, no matter what Brett reports. And even then, I'd say it will still take a few more years of back-and-forth results and at least one controversy to call them a true rival.

That's the thing with UCF that drives people crazy. They've considered USF a rival ever since the Board of Regents let us start a team. That's not how it works, but most UCF fans and apparently the media don't get that. Geography does not equal a rivalry. Look at USC and Notre Dame. Or Florida and Tennessee.

Except that USF-UCF had a 'rivalry' before football.  Not the kind of vomit-spewing, logo stomping, hatred of a Michigan-Ohio State or Oklahoma-Texas... but there was significant disdain between the two schools - even before I started in 1990.  To be sure, when USF joined the Metro, Louisville became a bit more of a rival - especially when Denny Crum called the Sun Dome the worst place to play a college basketball road game.

But there has always been some sneering snobbery between USF and UCF students...

[BULLheaded]

"They want what we have, we want much much more than they have to offer."

This was how UF was with FSU back in the late 50s.  I'm not making this up.  History repeats itself people.  Look it up.

History is not repeating itself, they were fighting to be the best of the best in the state, this is merely to be the best of the worst in the state. I'm sorry that doesn't excite me at all.

[BULLheaded]

You can't force a rivalry.  If it takes 20 years, it takes 20 years.  That doesn't lessen it.

You're right, you can't force a rivalry. UCF seems like they're trying to do just that.

No, you can't force a rivalry ... but you can squelch one.  We had a pretty good rivalry building with Southern Miss, until we got the invite to the Big East.  Now we don't play them any more - and it doesn't look like we will.

In this case, one university wants the game to be annual and the other doesn't.  UCF may be trying to force the issue, but USF is squelching it without really seeing where it could go.

The ideal situation would be to agree to another 1-for-1 series starting in 2010 or so... that gives a couple of years to see if there is really a build up to the game again.  If not, then UCF should be like FAU or FIU, in that we schedule them 2 or 3 times each decade.  I could live with that very easily.

I have to say that of all the teams in CUSA we could have played for our exit requirement THIS was the team I was hoping for. I absolutely hated their fans but they were a much better team than UCF and a win against them I think would actually earn some respect. Man that last minute game in ray jay was exciting as hell!

[Jamie]

That's not how it works, but most UCF fans and apparently the media don't get that. Geography does not equal a rivalry. Look at USC and Notre Dame. Or Florida and Tennessee.

Really?

So says:

Florida St-Florida

Florida St-Miami

Florida-Georgia

Clemson-South Carolina

Alabama-Auburn

Georgia-Georgia Tech

Ole Miss-Mississippi St

Colorado-Colorado St

Washington-Washington St

UCLA-USC

Penn St-Pitt (sadly, basically dead now)

Va Tech-Virginia

LSU-Ole Miss

Texas-Texas A&M

Should I go on?

Iowa-Iowa St

Michigan-Michigan St

Notre Dame-Purdue

Harvard-Yale

Oregon-Oregon St

Louisville-Kentucky

Oklahoma-Texas

Oklahoma-Oklahome St

Yeah...Geography has nothing to do with rivalries (yes, there are some NATIONAL Rivalries...but most are LOCAL/REGIONAL in nature)

Well this just proves my point. UCF wants a football rivalry (which is stupid, you can't want a rivalry) based on geography.