Thoughts on rivalries...

[Jim Johnson]

This is not meant to turn into a dumbgeon thread - so please keep it civil.  I wanted to take a moment to talk in more general terms about rivalries, and see how they apply to USF.

Let me say that I agree with most people that a rivalry can not be forced or created.  They develop over time, as teams play each other.  However, I will say that rivalries can also be squashed by not playing the games.

So, everyone talks about how big rivalry games involve some kind of common goal - usually a conference championship (or the national championship).  Michigan-Ohio State, Florida-Florida State, Southern Cal-Note Dame... There are a few exceptions (Colorado-Colorado State being the most prominent).

USF and UCF are both competing for the same thing: inclusion in the upper echelon of Florida football.  Both schools want the Big 3 to become the Big 4.  Doesn't that give them something worthwhile for which to compete??

Some people are talking about fan support.  Okay, I will grant you that there are far fewer USF fans heading to Orlando than I expected.  Part of that has to do with the awful first two games USF has played -- people love a winner, after all (the WVU sold 135 more tickets last year in part because USF was in the midst of a possible BCS run).  However, I would believe that - overall - the USF-UCF games will be among the highest attendance for both schools over the four years of the current series.  The first game is #3 all-time on USF's attendance list.  If the predicted 35,000 or so fans make it to the Citrus Bowl, it would be #6 or 7 all-time on UCF's attendance list.  Seems to me to be a decent draw.

So, what else makes a rivalry??  What am I missing that says this is not a rivalry??

(Please don't answer with 'because I say so' or 'because USF doesn't want it' ... I want to have an open, honest discussion about this... and I am keeping an open mind here, I could be convinced.)

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For the record. I want USF to have an ANNUAL series with a team from Florida.  I would rank my preference for those teams as:

1 - Miami  (could happen if ESPN, ACC, Big East, UM, and USF can make it work)

2 - Florida (never gonna happen, they only have 3 OOC games to schedule every year)

3 - Florida State (also not likely to happen until their AD and Coach leave)

4 - UCF (close enough to make it a day trip, likely to win more games than lose)

5 - FIU (at least we could stay in South Beach, should be an easy win most years)

6 - FAU (Boca may not be a great vacation destination, but should be an easy win most years)

7 - FAMU (I-AA game, but not sure if USF would want to travel to Tallahassee)

8 - BCC (I-AA game, but not sure if USF would want to travel to Daytona)

9 - Jacksonville (I-AA game, but not sure if USF would want to travel to Jacksonville)

Since UCF is the highest of my priorities that wants to play a series, that is fine with me.  If UM, UF, or FSU steps up - then UCF should be dropped like a hot potato.

[Knight4Life]

It may well become a rivalry but everyone wanted it to be like Florida Tenn after the two teams played once and it just doesnt happen like that.

[JoeB]

I don't think any true football fan ever thought it would be like UF/UT after that one meeting.  Maybe the casual fans on both sides, but not the true fans.  

[Knight4Life]

True it was an exageration but the truth is you dont build a rivalry by playing a game and on UCFs side especially no by losing it big.

[Bull Dozer]

UCF is the most logical here.  They compete for the same students, athletes, are very close to each other, and there is a nice little hatred between the two for often being confused for one another by outsiders.  The people who dont want this rivalry really have a pretty slanted view of our program and UCF's from what ive seen on here.  We've come along way but they seem to think were about 5 steps ahead of where we are in the big picture of things.  If everyone can think back to a time long long ago and maybe a place far far away called high school, who was your biggest rival?  Usually the school closest to you because you were either friends with alot of people on that roster or have been playing against them since you were little and hate them with a passion.  This is exactly what a rivalry is ITS STARTS WITH THE PLAYERS NOT THE FANS!  The fans are just along for the ride and will adopt whatever rivalry the players create.  If your at a game with a team you play regularly and you notice your players and the opposing players kick it up a notch when a certain team comes to town you to will do so just by the nature of being a good fan.  When your at a game and the players are just knocking the snot out of each other every play and playing like their on PCP that creates a whole different enviornment and freenzied feeling in the stands that will elevate the fans to another level of roudiness.  This is how rivalries start when players and fans together take things to another level for a certain team.  It doesnt happen over night as the fans usually take a while to get to the level of excitement the players feel when playing a rival, but i believe UCF can be this kind of game.  There is so much competition between the two and the players really do get up for this game.  

[Knight_Light]

Even FSU/UF games use to draw crowds in the 40,000 plus range decades ago.

Rivalries take time/years to build up...but many regional teams do play each other every year....as its basically an extra home game for many in their fan base.

As the series go...teams win/lose, etc...a rivalry might end up being the result.

Until then...its just a VERY popular game for both schools and their fans (UCF Tix office predicts a crowd of 42,000 plus. Believe Martin Fennelly of the times predicted 35,000).

When USF is playing non-conf games infront of 45,000 empty seats...ANY game that can be listed in say Top 5 attendance should be a GOOD thing.

Plus...since this game will still be the LARGEST USF Road Crowd Attendance for a USF regular season game...it seems to me that more USF fans will be able to attend this "road" game...more so and much easier than ANY future Big East Road Game for USF (believe the average distance to USF's 7 other Big East Stadiums/Schools is almost 1,100 miles away from Tampa).

This game doesn't even need a name...doesn't even need to be called a rivalry.

It's just a game that fans from BOTH schools seemed to be excited about...and will show up either on the road or at home...as even the players are excited about this game too.

Sounds like a great series (with no name needed) to me.

KL

[amie_abull]

Great post, Steve. I think it would be cool to have a UCF - USF rivalry, because I graduated from both schools (UCF undergrad '97 & USF grad school '03).  But I am a BULLS fan, through and through!!!!!

But you are right that the players are the ones that determine rivalries to a large extent, just by the level of play against certain "hated" teams.  If everyone (on BOTH sides) could just calm down & let the play on the field speak for itself, we may have an OOC rivalry developing before our very eyes. I would never count it as more important than our BE games, but we have to schedule some OOC games anyway, so why not stick to a popular in-state school for some friendly competition?

Great thread, Jim!!!!! I look forward to meaningful discussion, free of the usual smack talk.

[njligernj]

USF and UCF are both competing for the same thing: inclusion in the upper echelon of Florida football.  Both schools want the Big 3 to become the Big 4.  Doesn't that give them something worthwhile for which to compete??

I don't intend this to read as smack talk but I feel like we have other fish to fry in regard to making the Big 3 into 4. In other words, I don't think the road to Big 4 goes through UCF. Rutgers while located some distance away, poses a bigger threat to us in terms of recruiting and pulling ahead of us in the Big East, which in turn reduces our program. We need to get the edge on recruiting over these other Big East teams. We should already have the edge over UCF -- if our guys can't get a commit based on what we have right now (compared with UCF) then we're doomed. I think beating Rutgers does more for us than beating UCF -- albeit beating both of them is ideal.

If the predicted 35,000 or so fans make it to the Citrus Bowl, it would be #6 or 7 all-time on UCF's attendance list.  Seems to me to be a decent draw.

Yeah but draw doesn't really mean a rivalry. Tampa teams have often had great drawing games that had nothing to do with rivalries but rather were born out of convenience (the fans of those teams were living here during the winter). UCF is the same basic idea -- it's easy to get to the game.

So, what else makes a rivalry??  What am I missing that says this is not a rivalry??

Honestly if one side is even having a discussion about how it's not a rivalry -- then it's not a rivalry. I don't imagine Red Sox fans get together to discuss, "I forget, do we hate the Yankees or not?" If you have to ask ... it's not a rivalry. You need two to tango UCF.

NOW ... if UCF wins this game ... then it could turn into a rivalry. If we just beat them again (and in the subsequent games) then I really don't see anything developing.

It may be slightly unrealistic for USF to feel they are way ahead of UCF BUT I don't begrudge our school aiming higher. Realistically it's very difficult for one team to make that progress to becoming a top 25 program. Highly unlikely both teams would manage that. So USF has to assume they are going to progress to the point where UCF isn't on their radar. That in turn is why UCF hates us so much, and in turn why a lot of our fans act like we don't care. That's the dynamic. It's a rivalry if they prove us wrong on the field. If we win then the idea that we're above them is confirmed yet again -- so how are we going to start hating them? Doesn't make any sense. They win we might have a rivalry; we win ... we've got to move on. However, for now, if you have to ask, if you have to debate it ... then it's not a rivalry.

[bull2saintleo]

I can agree that USF needs a so-called rival that both sides can agree on.  It can be agrued that Louisville is our in-conference rival (yet Louisville will not reflect this), USF seriously needs to build a relationship with one of the in-state I-A teams.  UF and FSU are quickly off my list since UF only signed us as what they thought as a season kickoff "whipping boy" and FSU wants nothing to do with us.  

This leaves UCF and Miami.  Both schools have their pros and cons (as stated above in other posts), but I see an annual matchup with either team a plus.  It seems like diehard Bulls fans look forward to the UCF and Miami matchups, and in all honesty I would be pleased with either team.  All in all, unless UCF gets bumped up to the Big East, I see Miami as our future rivalry and who knows, maybe we can take them on evenly in the coming years, it's only a matter of time and support.

[BullatFSU]

 If everyone can think back to a time long long ago and maybe a place far far away called high school, who was your biggest rival?  Usually the school closest to you because you were either friends with alot of people on that roster or have been playing against them since you were little and hate them with a passion.   

Usually, your rival team in HS is in the same confererence or cassification as you are, and you're competing for standings in conference. Let's say you went to a 5-A school in FLA, you're not going to have any real "rivalry" with the 4-A  (or 3-A or 6-A, whatver, you get the point) school down the road from you, no matter how close they might be, and how many players know each other, because you're not in the same division.    

While UCF and USF are indeed both fighting for recognition in the state of FLA, each sees a different path to get there. I think in USF's case, the idea is to do a whole lot of things simultaneously, to get there as quickly as possible. Seems like we want to gain national recognition at the same time (or even before) we want to gain in-state recognition... if we can get "national" exposure first, the state recognition will follow...or so the idea goes. In-state rivalries take a back-seat in this scenario. While they're a nice thing to have, no doubt, they're not a necessity--especially with teams who are a step down from your division/conference like UCF in the C-USA.

UCF's appraoch seems to be a bit more tied to making it big in the state first, then expanding to a national level. It might take a bit longer (as witnessed by the fact that UCF has been playing ball longer than we have, yet doesn't have the BCS conference membership that we do) but it'll all (hopefully) lead to the same place.  It's just a matter of having a differnent buisiness model, IMO, and in the model UCF is using, in-state rivalries play a larger role.