Have we (USF) fallen asleep at the wheel?

[Guest nybullsfan]

Miami Dade College is the largest school in Florida, and the nation, with around 170,000 students--about 3 times the size of UCF's student enrollment.

http://www.mdc.edu/main/

Florida yes, USA no.

That honor belongs either to SUNY or Phoenix (technically, both a a single school with a lot of branch campuses). Even CUNY islarger than MDC.

Depending on which numbers you use, Miami Dade College shows up as #4 or #8.

Looks like UF is larger than UCF either way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_United_States_universities_by_enrollment

[hbryan]

USF was ranked 55th in the just released Kiplinger report for best value public universities in United States for instate students--not to shabby.  Rankings reports like Kiplingers are subjective, at least USF is recognized in top 100 nationally.  Other Florida public universities ranked for instate students by Kiplinger include:  UF-2; New College-11; FSU-20; UCF-33; USF-55; FIU-97. 

http://www.kiplinger.com/tools/colleges/

But this only personifies what the other poster was saying as UCF is ranked ahead of us here too, and by a substantial margin.

And yet we continue giving Genshaft raises, major ones at that, but by all measuring sticks UCF is surpassing USF in virtually all areas of academic and athletics under her watch.  If you're going to be measured then it should be by the progress we make compared to our peers and those with which we hope to aspire too.  Based on those measurements UCF has at least made up massive ground on us under Genshaft, while our growth seems to be in smaller increments, and UF and FSU appear to have moved so far ahead it's nearly unobtainable.

We are measuring our successes by abstract rulers like dollars in for research, and our ability to submit an AAU application-- we're 100 years from being accepted, let alone allowed to apply.  We were turned down because our numbers in class size, faculty per student, etc....were getting worse.  I worry that Judy enjoys the title more than the job.  Many on the faculty side say she refuses to listen, and it has shown in our diminishing results, and ditto for the athletic side.  At this rate we're going to be seeing FAU, and FIU rapidly ascending to our level...unless we step up our game and move to a higher plateau soon.

+2

I getting a little tired of hearing how impressive UCF is when directly compared to USF from the most ardent supporters of the BE, our fellow BE members.  You hit the nail on the head and if Judy continues on the path she has taken in the first Ten years, these next Ten will put us behing FIU, FAU and FGCU!!

[ctbrown24]

I don't believe we have taken a step back. Look at the numbers today compared to ten years ago. USF has attracted a higher caliber of high school students. Our acceptance rate is very similar to UCF.

My sister is #7 in her high school class. Very involved, good test scores, and a high GPA. She applied to USF and UCF three months ago. She still has not heard anything from either school. Last Wednesday, she applied to FAU. She got accepted two days later.

USF and UCF are very similar. Yes, each campus is unique. I was accepted at the three schools I applied to; FSU, USF, and UCF. USF just felt right. I enjoyed my time at USF very much and I wouldn't change a thing. The campus is much different today than it was the first time I was on campus. UCF does have a nice campus, but I find nothing wrong with ours at all. Many people at UCF who talk crap about our campus have never stepped foot on it. I'm sure many of our own alumni would be shocked how campus looks today compared to ten years ago.

One thing I would like Dr. Genshaft to do is to focus more on the UNDERGRADUATE experience, not just the research part of our school. I realize research is a huge deal for such a large university, but a little bit more of the focus needs to go towards improving student life. It's not bad, but there's always room for improvement.

Go Bulls!

[Tampabull99]

+2

I getting a little tired of hearing how impressive UCF is when directly compared to USF from the most ardent supporters of the BE, our fellow BE members.   You hit the nail on the head and if Judy continues on the path she has taken in the first Ten years, these next Ten will put us behing FIU, FAU and FGCU!!

[hbryan]

I don't believe we have taken a step back.

I don't think anyone was saying we have taken a step back, just that we haven't progressed similar to our close proximity peers across the entire university spectrum.

One thing I would like Dr. Genshaft to do is to focus more on the UNDERGRADUATE experience, not just the research part of our school. I realize research is a huge deal for such a large university, but a little bit more of the focus needs to go towards improving student life. It's not bad, but there's always room for improvement.Go Bulls!

You nailed it ctbrown, its not just about Research.  That's fine for academians but what about the majority of students and parents who want the complete and broader package and experience.

If Judy continues the path she has taken the first ten years, then the next ten will see USF approach 1 Billion (yes, that's a "B") per year in research.

To put this in perspective, UCLA does approximately $1 Billion and UC-Berkeley each does about $750 Million per year in research right now and they are the two best public universities in the country. . .except for UCF of course :

It's very laudable Tampabull99 but unbalanced in favor of research.  See comments above.

[IncrediBULL]

In the grand scheme of things, USF has chosen to be a medical/teaching/biomed/science research school.  We have a greater concentration on uppergrad work, than UCF.  Consider endowments, a very important indicator. 

http://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/news/2011/02/04/uf-ranked-55th-in-endowment-funds.html?ed=2011-02-04&s=article_du&ana=e_du_pub

UF, as big as they are, are only 55.  We are in the 175 range.  UCF is in the 300 range.  Also consider the Carnegie rankings of research institutions.  There are three in the state, USF, FSU, and UF.  That puts us in rarified air, and is based on our funded research. 

At the undergrad level, UCF has done a pretty good job creating a great student experience and that is why they are in the top 5 for enrollment nationally.  But at the level above that, they pale in comparison to what USF is doing.  And we pale in comparison to UF.  And UF pales in comparison to Harvard and Yale.  It is all relative.

[hbryan]

In the grand scheme of things, USF has chosen to be a medical/teaching/biomed/science research school.  We have a greater concentration on uppergrad work, than UCF.  Consider endowments, a very important indicator. 

http://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/news/2011/02/04/uf-ranked-55th-in-endowment-funds.html?ed=2011-02-04&s=article_du&ana=e_du_pub

UF, as big as they are, are only 55.  We are in the 175 range.  UCF is in the 300 range.   Also consider the Carnegie rankings of research institutions.  There are three in the state, USF, FSU, and UF.  That puts us in rarified air, and is based on our funded research.   

At the undergrad level, UCF has done a pretty good job creating a great student experience and that is why they are in the top 5 for enrollment nationally.   But at the level above that, they pale in comparison to what USF is doing.   And we pale in comparison to UF.  And UF pales in comparison to Harvard and Yale.  It is all relative.

That's where your wrong IncrediBULL and why we've said that where we were leading they've gained ground.  I don't know when they specifically got their RU/VH rating from Carnegie but they are at the top with UF, FSU, and USF now.

University of Central Florida

Orlando, Florida

Level 4-year or above 

Control Public 

Student Population 53,401 

Classification  Category 

Undergraduate Instructional Program: Prof+A&S/HGC: Professions plus arts & sciences, high graduate coexistence 

Graduate Instructional Program: CompDoc/NMedVet: Comprehensive doctoral (no medical/veterinary) 

Enrollment Profile: HU: High undergraduate 

Undergraduate Profile: MFT4/S/HTI: Medium full-time four-year, selective, higher transfer-in  Size and Setting: L4/NR: Large four-year, primarily nonresidential 

Basic RU/VH: Research Universities (very high research activity) 

This institution participated in the following elective classification

Community Engagement Curricular Engagement and Outreach and Partnerships

http://classifications.carnegiefoundation.org/lookup_listings/view_institution.php?unit_id=132903&start_page=institution.php&clq=%7B%22first_letter%22%3A%22U%22%7D

University of South Florida-Tampa

Tampa, Florida

Level 4-year or above 

Control Public 

Student Population 40,022 

Classification  Category 

Undergraduate Instructional Program: Bal/HGC: Balanced arts & sciences/professions, high graduate coexistence 

Graduate Instructional Program: CompDoc/MedVet: Comprehensive doctoral with medical/veterinary  

Enrollment Profile: HU: High undergraduate 

Undergraduate Profile: MFT4/S/HTI: Medium full-time four-year, selective, higher transfer-in 

Size and Setting: L4/NR: Large four-year, primarily nonresidential 

Basic RU/VH: Research Universities (very high research activity) 

This institution participated in the following elective classification

Community Engagement Curricular Engagement and Outreach and Partnerships

http://classifications.carnegiefoundation.org/lookup_listings/view_institution.php?unit_id=137351&start_page=institution.php&clq=%7B%22first_letter%22%3A%22U%22%7D

[Tampabull99]

I don't believe we have taken a step back.

I don't think anyone was saying we have taken a step back, just that we haven't progressed similar to our close proximity peers across the entire university spectrum.

One thing I would like Dr. Genshaft to do is to focus more on the UNDERGRADUATE experience, not just the research part of our school. I realize research is a huge deal for such a large university, but a little bit more of the focus needs to go towards improving student life. It's not bad, but there's always room for improvement.Go Bulls!

You nailed it ctbrown, its not just about Research.  That's fine for academians but what about the majority of students and parents who want the complete and broader package and experience.

If Judy continues the path she has taken the first ten years, then the next ten will see USF approach 1 Billion (yes, that's a "B") per year in research.

To put this in perspective, UCLA does approximately $1 Billion and UC-Berkeley each does about $750 Million per year in research right now and they are the two best public universities in the country. . .except for UCF of course :

It's very laudable Tampabull99 but unbalanced in favor of research.  See comments above.

It’s time for a reality check.  I know we all like to think that football, athletics, campus environment, etc. is the most important thing for a university of our type but it just isn’t. The reality, like it or not, is that research funding is the lifeblood of a large public university and is far more important than absolutely anything else that happens at the university.  The largest source of capital for operating a university comes from research dollars, not state appropriations from taxes and certainly not undergraduate tuition which is barely a drop in the bucket.  Accordingly, the people that run universities are overwhelmingly concerned with increasing its research profile over any other peripheral concerns.  If you asked Judy (or any other president/chancellor of a major university about what percentage of their time is spent worrying about things like athletics/campus aesthetics/etc.; you will find that it is extraordinarily (and probably surprisingly) small. Frankly speaking; athletics, campus experience, campus aesthetics are far down the list of importance.

So like it or not, the road USF has chosen is to become a player in the big leagues of top research universities and not spend an inordinate amount of time/money worrying about what will make undergraduates feel warm and fuzzy.  I’m very happy with that choice as I think focusing primarily on expanding research facilities and capabilities is a much wiser use of capital than building amenities for undergrads like UCF appears to be doing.

[hbryan]

It's time for a reality check.  I know we all like to think that football, athletics, campus environment, etc. is the most important thing for a university of our type but it just isn’t.

I think your the only one coming to that rash and unreasonable conclusion.  Everyone else has stated more balance, is that balance 85% Research and 15% UG, I don't know.  Some have felt there is a lack of focus on campus facilities and on campus experience and that competing universities have taken advantage of this lack of focus while still concentrating on their own Research objectives and have gained ground in that area while distancing themselves from us in the other area. 

The reality, like it or not, is that research funding is the lifeblood of a large public university and is far more important than absolutely anything else that happens at the university.  

I haven't seen where anyone has argued to the contrary.  From your avatar identifying you in Westwood, I assume that you a part of UCLA research staff, the administration at UCLA, or are in post graduate work.  Kudo's if you are but that may be the source of your obviously myopic view of the university experience.  Frankly, I'm a little surprised that someone can be that narrow-minded, when it's clearly USF's intention to compete against the top universities in all facets.  The Center for Measuring University Performance utilizes nine (9) institutional characteristics to classify the top Research Universities and Research is the major one but not the only one.  Those nine include: Research, Endowments (private support), Faculty, Advanced Training, Undergraduate, etc.  Obviously a pretty diverse set of characteristics that will give CMUP, Carnegie and others the ability to rate a university thoroughly instead of simply by how many dollars they bring into research.  Clearly, the level of undergraduate brought into the university is based upon their SAT/ACT scoring, but this only tells the partial picture.  The undergraduate schools must be high rated, the class sizes have limitations to promote better undergraduate learning experience, and the facilities should be there that will help lure the best and the brightest to your university.  So unfortunately, this is contrary to your own angry posts. 

Accordingly, the people that run universities are overwhelmingly concerned with increasing its research profile over any other peripheral concerns. 

As stated above, my take is that USF clearly wants to compete with the UCLAs, OSUs, UFs, etc. and these so called "peripheral concerns" are not that at all but are those items which bolster the eight other characteristics that are used to judge the Top Public Research Universities.  Many, many presidents see athletics as a tool to keep their alumni engaged in their universities for a lifetime and a tool to assist in endowments and they view undergraduate faculties (classroom buildings, dorms, college buildings, etc) as necessary to lure the best and brightest to their univerities which also bolsters their ratings.  Clearly, the AAU determination that USF class sizes are too large and that graduation rates are too low lends credence to that viewpoint.

If you asked Judy (or any other president/chancellor of a major university about what percentage of their time is spent worrying about things like athletics/campus aesthetics/etc.; you will find that it is extraordinarily (and probably surprisingly) small. Frankly speaking; athletics, campus experience, campus aesthetics are far down the list of importance.

So like it or not, the road USF has chosen is to become a player in the big leagues of top research universities and not spend an inordinate amount of time/money worrying about what will make undergraduates feel warm and fuzzy.  I'm very happy with that choice as I think focusing primarily on expanding research facilities and capabilities is a much wiser use of capital than building amenities for undergrads like UCF appears to be doing.

Based on your entire screed, you are clearly misinformed about how top research universities are evaluated and scored and what it takes to get into the top 25 or the AAU.  I don't presume that President Genshaft has that view and will expect her to not fall behind or give up anymore ground to the mutts at our east.

[Guest USFbull2012]

Just had to make one comment than I'll let you guys be... Have you looked at the freshmen profile of both schools lately? Calling UCF a diploma mill makes no sense coming from USF, from Princeton yes, just had to respond to that.  UCF has a new medical school, simulation work with the military, Lockheed, NASA, etc so it's not like nothing is going past undergrad.

 UF students already consider UCF the second best option after UF.

If you take a current poll of recent quality high school students and their parents, UCF is very popular. Before most Tampa Bay students were either going to UF, FSU, or USF but that has changed. There are A LOT of Tampa Bay students going to UCF now, during holiday breaks you'll see a bunch of UCF shirts in the gyms, malls, etc. And by most sources recently it's the 2nd hardest public school to get into after UF in the State of Florida so easy entrance is not the reason. We must be doing something right. Have a nice day 

Uh USF if the second hardest Public school to get into. But thanks for trying. Our Academics are  superior to UCF. There is a reason many students go there, for location alone and it is really not that hard to get in. You have 55,000 students for a reason lets not be delusional...your no different then Arizona State. As they say "A billion degrees served"...Orlando is a much more exciting city then Tampa, but that is about it. We have one of the  top Cancer centers in the country on our campus...so whats the problem. USF needs to step up its Business Program though, the only one that UCF is far superior in and it is not even close.

There is a reason why UCF gets mistaken for USF by major politicians. They could careless about them and USF is the Brand name they know better. When the every state was trying to do this "flagship school" bs, we were on the bill along with Floria State. Not Central Florida...just saying.