Out of conference schedule

[mattegunz]

The 7 conference game thing is a pain in the rump.  To visit a highly traveled road, the NBE needs to split from the basketball schools ASAP & add 4 of the listed 6 schools - ECU, UAB, UCF, Memphis, Tulane or Temple.   Personally, Orlando, Memphis, New Orleans and Birmingham makes sense to me 'cuz it give the NBE some southern flavor.  All have international airports too.  Or get UMASS's, VT's and/or UNH's football on a fast track for D1A.  BTW, I hate the Army/Navy partial membership idea.  It's crap.  And please, No Notre Dame rhetoric.  It's plain pipe dreams.

South Division

USF, UCF, Memphis, UL, Tulane, UAB

North Division:

UCONN, Pitt, Syracuse, WVU, Rutgers, Cincinnatti

After writting this conference, I just realized it will never happen b/c the old BE teams would not have control.  This conference makes sense but we're gonna havta wait another 10-15 yrs for another conference shuffle.

Going to 12 teams would be a bad move for the BE.  Its a bad move because these teams will be quantity, but not quality. Didn't mean to quote coach Bower.  The BE should try to add one or possibly two more teams.  Memphis would be the best possible addition and possibly EZU.  Tulane almost dropped their football program recently so that eliminates them.  UCF could be a possibility with improvement.  UAB is a tough sell in a  state resistant to change like Alabama.  

[Bullpride08]

The 7 conference game thing is a pain in the rump.  To visit a highly traveled road, the NBE needs to split from the basketball schools ASAP & add 4 of the listed 6 schools - ECU, UAB, UCF, Memphis, Tulane or Temple.   Personally, Orlando, Memphis, New Orleans and Birmingham makes sense to me 'cuz it give the NBE some southern flavor.  All have international airports too.  Or get UMASS's, VT's and/or UNH's football on a fast track for D1A.  BTW, I hate the Army/Navy partial membership idea.  It's crap.  And please, No Notre Dame rhetoric.  It's plain pipe dreams.

South Division

USF, UCF, Memphis, UL, Tulane, UAB

North Division:

UCONN, Pitt, Syracuse, WVU, Rutgers, Cincinnatti

After writting this conference, I just realized it will never happen b/c the old BE teams would not have control.  This conference makes sense but we're gonna havta wait another 10-15 yrs for another conference shuffle.

Doug, you may hate the Army/Navy partial membership, but the reality is it gives the BE a win-win on all fronts.  Since we are Big East members now I would presume you'd like a win-win for our conference.

With the new BCS rules it virtually guarantee's that the Big East will maintain their BCS auto-bid in perpetuity providing it doesn't disappear, but it also requires a few key components on the Big East's part.

1.  We must maintain our relative strength, the new BCS rules are going to weigh the strength of a conference from top to bottom.   Bringing in say Army'-Navy on a partial provisional membership wouldn't count against us in the BCS laws even if they're weak, but it would help with scheduling.

2.  The BCS is going to give credit for market share.  While NO, Memphis, Birmingham, and Orlando provide coverage and large metro markets, they are also markets that are more strongly canvassed by competing product, i.e. New Orleans has an LSU school in it, Memphis has a UT school in it, and Birmingham- forget it Auburn and Bama rule.  Orlando has a bit more autonomy but they're still less than 2 hours from Gainesville.  Army gives us NY, and Navy gives us DC....both are pretty open to capitalize on college athletics.

3.  Why do we need to add these teams when there's nothing stopping us from scheduling them already.  If adding UCF, and Tulane only weaken the overall strength of the conference at least we can still keep them on our schedule as USF has UCF and Tulane for future home and away series.  UL has Memphis for a few home and away series, and Cinci has ECU.   We're already accomplishing the synergy there's no need to add them, water down the overall strength of the conference, and potentially dilute the fan interest.

4.  Having a "Southern" flare in an Eastern Conference can force a conference to quickly lose it's identity and maintain fan interest- see new and old C-USA for reference.  It's one thing to have one southern novelty act- Miami from 91-04, and now USF- but adding five more southern teams will essentially split the identity and cause a regional marketing issue.  As for USF I don't mind us owning the Bay Area and Northeast, it's a niche that Miami vacated and FSU or UF don't want.  What I don't want to do is try to compete in the south for supremecy among southern teams like FSU, and UF- we'll lose that battle, i.e. if we win the Big East beating the likes of UAB, Tulane, Memphis, and ECU imagine what say UF would say about winning our conference if they win say the SEC by beating UT, SC, Bama, Auburn, and LSU- they'd say we don't deserve a BCS because the perception is we played in a weaker southern conference, whereas say if we beat Pitt, Cuse, WVU, UL, Cinci, Rutgers, Uconn, and Navy, then OOC of UNC, and Indiana....it's tough for UF, or FSU to make any claims since they probably didn't venture up to play any northern teams- basically with the the current BE structure we've carved out a niche.

The Big East is on the verge of having four teams that are relatively potent for years to come.  Pitt, WVU, and UL are the cream of the crop, and a few extra players, more BCS money, and one or two big breaks and these three will be perennial top 25.  Now there is room for a fourth but it all depends on who's ready to step up and take charge- I think Rutgers, Syracuse, and USF are going to compete for that spot.  Those top 4-5 spots in the conference will be guaranteed bowls and payouts.  There's no need to waterdown, and weaken the conference.  

Funny, after seeing the new BCS rules there has to be more than a few new C-USA fans from say USM, Memphis, and ECU that are wondering what in the world they just did.  Since the new BCS rankings is going to consider % of teams in top 25 (which bodes well for BE), the highest ranking top 25 (UL was #7 last year higher than the B12 final), strength of conference from top to bottom, SOS (when you water down a conference it lessens the number of OOC you can play to bolster your SOS), and power wins among the conference.  

C-USA could have taken Marshall, and UCF then circled the wagons and made it into a nice little 9 member league with some relative strength.  But they had to get creative, and talk about a conference champ game.  Well all that watering down adding SMU, Tulsa, Rice, and UTEP could cost them any shot at a BCS ever, as well as the Liberty Bowl has said they will not be forced to take the champion.  They might have taken a slight dollar hit on TV's, but for the overall strength of conference you'd think C-USA would have learned from their mistakes.

[YourBoss]

Schools from the Big 12, SEC or ACC can get away with that.  A school from the Big East can't.

[BullDoug]

I must admit I knee jerk reacted w/ the above post.  I agree with most of your arguments. 12 is bad.  The southern flair thing being bad is arguable.  Quality over quantity is good but not possible.  Just give the conference a 9th "FB only" member.  If quality is what you want then stealing a team is the only answer but "FB only" will not work to steal a team.  So where does that leave the NBE?

SB, you have holes in a few of your arguments.  You need to explain to me how Army doesn't hurt the SOS and UAB does.  Also how can you say Army gives the NBE NY & Navy DC and UAB, Memphis, Tulane and UCF can't give the NBE thier markets?  These schools can give as much of their markets as USF, UC, & Rutgers can theirs.

USF has the same problems w/FSU & UF as UCF.  NYC is not a college FB city.  NYC all about the Pros.  Let's not forget Syracuse and Rutgers either for NYC.  Navy giving DC?  Hardly.  What about MD & VA?  And DC has to many out of towners to capture that metro.

Let me add to why I did choose these schools.  Besides the metro connection of these schools, I like the fact that USF has history with these schools especially UAB & Memphis.  Tulane has good academics and just because their program was strugglling financially is no reason to shoot them down.  USF isn't actually overflowing w/dinero.

Additionally I believe a USF-UCF revivalry would be good.  I don't think we can create an in state rivalry with the Top 3 b/c the history runs to deep.  Creating history w/UCF to me is legitimately possible.  I hold no ill will towards the GKr's who play w/o a full deck and obsessed w/USF 'cuz I know that's not the norm for that group.  Mostly thier alumni is like ours...indifferent to athletics.  Why not get both our ole foogies  fired up.    The only negative it keeps USF stuck in the 4-5 slot which is a good argument why not to do this.

But ultimately, a 12 team conference with a championship game can be a negative but an extra game a yr. with national exposure hasn't been all that bad for the Big12 & SEC.  

[bullzpen4636]

horrible idea, might as well just give the autobid to mwc now and get it over with. memphis is an okay choice for a ninth member, but i thought we were leaving cusa because we didn't want to play games in empty stadiums with programs with no national appeal or history of supporting their athletics. that 0-11 record by the knights will do wonders for increasing our overall conference average, i wouldn't hold your breath on that one happening anytime soon. with the 12 game schedules, conference championships are becoming less favorable, just ask the big 12. the mac has a championship game how much prestige and exposure has that given them. finally, i doubt a championship game with that conference would offset the loss we would get in splitting bcs revenue 12 ways.

as far as the ucf game, if there's a great turnout and the games are close and exciting sure why not continue the series, but i don't agree with forcing a rivalry just for the sake of location purposes, rivalries are developed on the field.

[Knight_Light]

i wouldn't hold your breath on that one happening anytime soon. with the 12 game schedules, conference championships are becoming less favorable, just ask the big 12. the mac has a championship game how much prestige and exposure has that given them. finally, i doubt a championship game with that conference would offset the loss we would get in splitting bcs revenue 12 ways.

as far as the ucf game, if there's a great turnout and the games are close and exciting sure why not continue the series, but i don't agree with forcing a rivalry just for the sake of location purposes, rivalries are developed on the field.

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Without the MAC Championship Game....Marshall probably wouldn't be a member of CUSA starting July1, and Marshall wouldn't be almost a house-hold name (most know that Randy Moss, Pennington, Leftwhich all won Titles at Marshall).

The MAC Championship Game is one of a only a few games that the MAC gets top billing in a 3 hour slot.

Same for the Big 12...Since the Big 12 was formed...partly with some help from their Champ Game format, Texas & OU are now Top 5 teams almost year-in-year-out.

Do you think the SEC & Atlanta was to STOP their Champ Game??? No.

Heck, you had cities falling all over themselves to host the new ACC Champ Game (Jacksonville won it).

Championship Games are GOOD for the overall conf.

KL

[Jim Johnson]

BullDoug - Bien makes some excellent points... let me add a couple more.

First, your rationale for adding teams to the conference is rather USF-centric.  Yes, USF has developed a bit of history with these teams in our short football life.  Louisville and Cincy have a longer history with these teams (at least two years longer)...  But the other five teams in the Big East don't have any history with them.  Why would they be inclined to add these teams?

From a conference perspective, it would be better to add Temple, Army, or Navy - as they are all in the northeast.

Your market analysis is correct. NYC may not be a college football town - but with that many people, you don't need a college football town to be successful.  The NYC market is the largest in the country... the Big East has three schools in that market- Rutgers, Seton Hall, & St. John's.  So there is already a following for the Big East there -- adding Army would give us four schools (two football schools) in that market.

DC is a lot like Florida -- mostly a lot of transplants.  It is also a town full or people that have college degrees, which means they already have allegiances.  Finally, the University of Maryland is less than 5 miles from the DC city limits, which means that DC is pretty much a UMD town anyway.  (Georgetown provides a solid Big East base in DC already)Adding Navy would be helpful in showing that the Big East is more than just basketball.

Look - the ideal situation for the Big East is to add 1 football only member.  We already have 16 teams in basketball, so we aren't gonna add 17th schools to our mix.  The only teams that are available right now are the independents: Notre Dame, Army, Navy, and Temple.  The Big East kicked Temple out, and Notre Dame has not incentive to play football in the Big East (although there has been talk of increasing the number of Big East teams on their schedule).  Therefore, we are left with Army & Navy.  If Army and Navy each play four Big East teams, then we all get 8 conference games.  Army & Navy would get two home and two away with the Big East.  Then after two years, the teams switch so that the teams that played Navy will play Army home-and-home, and vice versa.

This is the best scenario from an overall conference perspective. Sure, I would like to see ECU or Memphis or even USM on our schedule every year. But would Syracuse? or Pittsburgh? or Connecticut?

[bullzpen4636]

--------------------------------

Without the MAC Championship Game....Marshall probably wouldn't be a member of CUSA starting July1, and Marshall wouldn't be almost a house-hold name (most know that Randy Moss, Pennington, Leftwhich all won Titles at Marshall).

The MAC Championship Game is one of a only a few games that the MAC gets top billing in a 3 hour slot.

Same for the Big 12...Since the Big 12 was formed...partly with some help from their Champ Game format, Texas & OU are now Top 5 teams almost year-in-year-out.

Do you think the SEC & Atlanta was to STOP their Champ Game??? No.

Heck, you had cities falling all over themselves to host the new ACC Champ Game (Jacksonville won it).

Championship Games are GOOD for the overall conf.

KL

i tend to disagree, my point is that with the addition of a 12th game in the schedule the champ game is not as beneficial as it once was, hell the big 12 wants to replace it with an in conference game. with the new auto bid rules, the big east at most expands to 9, most likely memphis or villanova if they can build up their football program. unless they are capable of bringing in established programs (i.e. penn state, maryland, etc.) the championship game wouldn't be sensible from a financial point of view and would just make it harder for the conference to retain its autobid, which currently should be its priority.

if the big east added penn state, notre dame, maryland, and memphis and had a champ game in new york it would probably be a safe bet that it would be a bigger money maker than the acc game, due to the huge northeastern tv market and endorsement possibilities. but not gonna happen anytime soon.

[BullDoug]

BullDoug - Bien makes some excellent points... let me add a couple more.

First, your rationale for adding teams to the conference is rather USF-centric.  Yes, USF has developed a bit of history with these teams in our short football life.  Louisville and Cincy have a longer history with these teams (at least two years longer)...  But the other five teams in the Big East don't have any history with them.  Why would they be inclined to add these teams?

From a conference perspective, it would be better to add Temple, Army, or Navy - as they are all in the northeast.

Your market analysis is correct. NYC may not be a college football town - but with that many people, you don't need a college football town to be successful.  The NYC market is the largest in the country... the Big East has three schools in that market- Rutgers, Seton Hall, & St. John's.  So there is already a following for the Big East there -- adding Army would give us four schools (two football schools) in that market.

DC is a lot like Florida -- mostly a lot of transplants.  It is also a town full or people that have college degrees, which means they already have allegiances.  Finally, the University of Maryland is less than 5 miles from the DC city limits, which means that DC is pretty much a UMD town anyway.  (Georgetown provides a solid Big East base in DC already)Adding Navy would be helpful in showing that the Big East is more than just basketball.

Look - the ideal situation for the Big East is to add 1 football only member.  We already have 16 teams in basketball, so we aren't gonna add 17th schools to our mix.  The only teams that are available right now are the independents: Notre Dame, Army, Navy, and Temple.  The Big East kicked Temple out, and Notre Dame has not incentive to play football in the Big East (although there has been talk of increasing the number of Big East teams on their schedule).  Therefore, we are left with Army & Navy.  If Army and Navy each play four Big East teams, then we all get 8 conference games.  Army & Navy would get two home and two away with the Big East.  Then after two years, the teams switch so that the teams that played Navy will play Army home-and-home, and vice versa.

This is the best scenario from an overall conference perspective. Sure, I would like to see ECU or Memphis or even USM on our schedule every year. But would Syracuse? or Pittsburgh? or Connecticut?

Jim, I agreed with only adding 9th team whoever it is.   I understand the Army/Navy deal.  I just think it's gimmicky and at this pt. in time both schools ultimately will be a drag on SOS.  I don't want the Academies in MY conference.  MY as in the conference of the team I've chosen to support financially.  You will havta come up w/some helluva argument w/some good stats to change my cave man mentality/brain.  Ima engineer so numbers are important.

On the metro schools, you actually reinforced my thought on SBien's metro market rational was playing both sides of the barrel.  None of these NCUSA nor NBE schools have a solid lock on there respective metros w/the exception of possibly Pitt & maybe UL.   Not UCF, USF, UC, Memphis, UAB, Tulane, even TCU, Rice, Houston, etc.  Large metros have diverse communities.  Period.  BTW, his other points were good.

As for UCF, I want my alma mater to have a bonified in-state rival.  Someone we all hate, that hate us and we play every yr and is within reasonable driving distance.  FSU has UF & Miami.  UF has FSU, GA & TN.  Miami has FSU.  The Top 3 are not going to open the door for USF.  The Bulls are gonna havta smash it open.  Ultimately playing UCF, FIU, & FAU give them an opportunity to climb over us.  I am stuck on the fence about UCF.  USF actually had the conference rival in USM and UAB IMO.  If USF could compete in BB vs UL and win in FB this season then I believe that would be good for conference rivalries.

[BullGrad95]

Let me throw a monkey wrench into this whole thing...

I think one thing that some of you are forgetting is that Army will not rejoin a conference.  They just left C-USA to become an independent and negotiated a TV deal with the ESPN networks.  Why would they give that up to go back into a conference or be a partial member?  Ain't gonna happen.  Forget about Army and the Big East.