The success of women's BB recruiting.

[Bull94]

Interesting apples and oranges comparison. Women's hoops vs. Men's hoops.....

I could only imagine what beastie (or any of us for that matter) would be saying if we had hired a 28 year old Mens coach whose only head coaching experience came at the high school level. We would have run him out of town with a record like CF had his first 2 years . Lucky we didn't run CF out as women's coach.

CRM vs. CF. Nearly identical records after the first 2 years. Maybe different approaches but they seem to be on similar paths. Good programs take time to build.

MM

I agree that Coach F is underpaid but it is a fact that men's coaches are paid about 3 times on average what women's coaches are paid. That is a whole different discussion. CF makes about $80k while CRM makes about $240k. Coach F is paid the 12th lowest amount among the top 117 BCS schools. I'd be willing to bet CRM is probably around the same level. Sad but true. If we don't step up to the plate then CF will be gone. I think his contract expires this year??

[beastiebull]

Interesting apples and oranges comparison. Women's hoops vs. Men's hoops.....

I could only imagine what beastie (or any of us for that matter) would be saying if we had hired a 28 year old Mens coach whose only head coaching experience came at the high school level. We would have run him out of town with a record like CF had his first 2 years . Lucky we didn't run CF out as women's coach.

CRM vs. CF. Nearly identical records after the first 2 years. Maybe different approaches but they seem to be on similar paths. Good programs take time to build.

MM

I agree that Coach F is underpaid but it is a fact that men's coaches are paid about 3 times on average what women's coaches are paid. That is a whole different discussion. CF makes about $80k while CRM makes about $240k. Coach F is paid the 12th lowest amount among the top 117 BCS schools. I'd be willing to bet CRM is probably around the same level. Sad but true. If we don't step up to the plate then CF will be gone. I think his contract expires this year??

It is not an apples vs oranges discussion when the blanket statements "USF has no HOOPS tradition, we can't attract top talent" and "Florida is not a basketball state".  After all we are "only" USF...funny how this doesn't affect women's hoops recruiting.  

[Bull94]

It is not an apples vs oranges discussion when the blanket statements "USF has no HOOPS tradition, we can't attract top talent" and "Florida is not a basketball state".  After all we are "only" USF...funny how this doesn't affect women's hoops recruiting.  

First of all, I never said "we can't attract top talent" only that I believe given the current circumstances we shouldn't expect to attract top talent. A remodel of the sundome, a few years to build momentum, and better fan support should help in recruiting.

It is a fact that we have virtually no HOOPS tradition. I think you'll find it hard to argue that.

I'm not sure if I said that Florida was not a basketball state but I think you'll find that the Florida schools put a greater emphasis on their football programs. How many National titles has the state won in basketball? How many in football?

It is apples and oranges. Men's recruiting is much more competitive. I don't see Alabama boosters(or half of the SEC among others) paying high school coaches $150k to direct their top women's players to their schools.

According to your logic, we should give CJF the head coaching job for the men's team. He is such a great recruiter that we should expect him to bring in top 35  classes every year for the men's program too.

[Papa_Bull]

Bay area basketball produces little talent

Few I-A players hail from Citrus, Hernando, Pasco, Hillsborough or Pinellas counties. And the number will only dwindle.

By KEITH NIEBUHR, Times Staff Writer

Published March 1, 2005

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When the Florida Gators of 1989 designed a play in the post, the ball almost always went to 7-foot-2 center Dwayne Schintzius. If a jumper was needed, they often turned to Renaldo Garcia. And down low, Dwayne Davis, a muscular 6-7 forward, was the man the Gators counted on to clean up on the boards.

And what did those three have in common besides playing on Florida's first SEC title team? They played their high school ball in the bay area.

"We had a lot of guys from here on the team," Garcia said.

Not anymore.

Garrett Tyler, a walk-on from Palm Harbor U. averaging 1.4 minutes, is the Gators' lone local this season. Florida State and Miami don't have any, and USF has just one, forward and leading scorer Terrence Leather of Robinson.

Out of state, it's a little better.

At Oklahoma State, brothers Joey and Stephen Graham of Brandon are significant contributorsJoey is regarded as among the country's top players. Illinois, unbeaten and ranked No.1, has Bloomingdale's Nick Smith at center. And Tarence Kinsey of Jefferson is one of South Carolina's best talents.

After that, things thin out.

But it wasn't always like this.

The area has produced NBA centers Matt Geiger, Andrew DeClercq and Schintzius, 1984 Olympian Jeff Turner and numerous players who appeared in the Final Four.

"Based on the last 10 years here, I would say (the area) for the most part is below average," said Garcia, now the coach at Sickles.

Although talent has been produced, the numbers are less impressive considering more than 2.5-million people live in the metropolitan area. This year, Citrus, Hernando, Hillsborough, Pasco and Pinellas counties are expected to produce 5-6 Division I-A players, none to a marquee program. Since Garcia played at Florida, the area has grown by about 500,000 yet the number of big-time recruits has fallen.

Meantime, local teams have had mixed success. Admiral Farragut was last season's Class 2A state champion. Lakewood was 4A champion in 2002. Before that, you must go back to 1995 (Tampa Catholic) to find an area champion.

"Historically, there haven't been as many (standout recruits) there," said Bill Buchalter of the Orlando Sentinel , who has covered high school sports in Florida for more than 40 years. "They've had some success, but they haven't had a continued run."

The year's crop is highlighted by Alex Ruoff, a 6-7 guard from Central and Brandon's Zaronn Cann, a 6-6 forward. Ruoff has signed with West Virginia, Cann with USF.

"A lot of the kids up here don't seem to be focused athletically," Central coach John Sedlack. "But Alex is obsessed with basketball."

Sedlack and Brandon coach Mark Hermann scheduled games outside the region to improve their teams and push their stars. Brandon owns a 61-game win streak against Hillsborough County foes, and while Hermann is proud of that, he said it speaks to the county's quality of play.

"That shouldn't happen," he said of the streak. "It's really been down here the last five years. It probably goes in cycles, but right now it's down. The players of the year in Miami, where do they go? Where do they go in Orlando? In Jacksonville? They're all going to big-time schools. The last few players of the year in Hillsborough County have gone to small Division I programs if they've gone Division I at all."

Last season's Hillsborough player of the year, Gaither's Antonio Russell, signed with Western Carolina.

Why don't we produce more Division I talent?

The answers vary.

Some area coaches believe the popularity of football hurts. But that doesn't keep Miami and Fort Lauderdale from producing its share of talent. Others say the area is in a bad cycle, nothing more.

Garcia doesn't buy either argument. To him, the talent is here but not being tapped. Garcia said because Hillsborough middle schools play a limited schedule, athletes are behind in fundamentals when they arrive in high school.

"The kids (in Hillsborough) don't get the opportunity to play like the other counties provide," he said. "If you take a good athlete that has just started the game as a ninth-grader and compare him to a kid who has played three or four years prior to that, the kid playing longer has the edge."

St. Petersburg Catholic's Mike Moran, who coaches junior forward Aaron Holmes, an N.C. State commitment, agrees. Before moving to Pinellas County, Moran coached at Plant, King and the University of Tampa. When told how many area players were expected to sign with Division I-A programs, he said he was surprised the number wasn't lower.

"I've had (Cincinnati coach) Bob Huggins and (Florida coach) Billy Donovan in my gym, and I've heard them say, "I don't get here very often,"' Moran said. "And I think one thing you can point to is that youth basketball in Tampa is disorganized. It's a little bit better over here, and by and large, the (high school) teams are better. The middle schools play more games here, and every recreation center has a league."

But even in St. Petersburg, the fundamentals aren't what some believe they should be. Admiral Farragut's Michael Wells, one of the area's most successful coaches and a believer that hoops isn't as average around here as some suggest, said he was "astonished" when he moved from Illinois.

"Up there, we had a feeder program in the second grade," he said.

Will things turn around here?

Will the feeder programs grow in stature?

Or is the area simply in a down cycle?

"I was talking to (Tampa Prep coach) Joe Fenlon, and he mentioned that (former Duke player) Casey Sanders was his one guy," Moran said. "He said he didn't think he'd get another one like that. I guess Aaron is my guy. He's the kind of guy you wait on."

For some, the wait is longer than others.

[Last modified March 1, 2005, 01:11:12]

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/03/01/Sports/Bay_area_basketball_p.shtml

[dabull80]

ok Bien, Lets talk about history and facts.  Fernandez came in as "interim" head coach for the womens BB team which makes recruiting almost impossible.  He came in at a time when the athletic department had just fired the AD because of womens basketball.  The womens BB coach was also fired and lawsuites were flying around like confetti at News Year.  Now compare this to Mac who comes in with some good players(not great but good),institutes his system of my way or the highway,and ends up his first year with what ? four scholorship players.  Biggest difference I see is Mac "chose" to do it his way with a line drawn in the sand and if you crossed that line you were done - no margin for error.  Mens basketball in comparrison to the womens team was in great shape.

[Guest S.  Bien]

ok Bien, Lets talk about history and facts.  Fernandez came in as "interim" head coach for the womens BB team which makes recruiting almost impossible.  He came in at a time when the athletic department had just fired the AD because of womens basketball.  The womens BB coach was also fired and lawsuites were flying around like confetti at News Year.  Now compare this to Mac who comes in with some good players(not great but good),institutes his system of my way or the highway,and ends up his first year with what ? four scholorship players.  Biggest difference I see is Mac "chose" to do it his way with a line drawn in the sand and if you crossed that line you were done - no margin for error.  Mens basketball in comparrison to the womens team was in great shape.

Let's tango.  Coach Mac was brought in in late April after Seth left very late for Vtech.  He had zero time to recruit his first year, and was stuck with a few of Seth's average recruits- Seth was loading up for the fall with guys like Dowdell who followed him to Vtech.  He turned away one recruit on the basis the kid couldn't play- Freeman, and stuck with Dairra.  When Mac got here there was the well documented marijuana incident with Baker (this started before Mac's arrival), Franklin was ineligible, and Mac had no time to really pull any major recruits.  He actually did a good job finding Mosley so late in the game.

In the fall he had more depatures that's not all due to his hard nose style because Oglesby's didn't want to play for the new staff, he wanted Coach Z...he left despite Coach Mac's urging to stick around.   Then Bryant blows out his knee in December....again out of Mac's hands.  Barber, who got in a fist fight with Diarra during a practice, which i fail to see how that was Mac's doing, and got into the doghouse and subsequently departed.  Jimmy Baxter wasn't happy and left for better days in track and field, you could argue that Mac ran him off, but Baxter did make it easy to walk away.  Then Brigman got hurt, as did James Holmes.  What was left by mid-January was Kalimba "Project" Diarra (Seth's recruit), Leather, Mosley, Swift, Morris, and a barily usable Brigman.

Sounds to me like Mac didn't come into a 'peachy' situation either.  He still managed four more wins then Fernandez in his first year, and some early season injuries and departures- most of which were hardly his doing- made the season impossible to contend in.  He ended up playing a bunch of walk-ons.  All the while getting paid one of the worst salaries for a 1-A men's hoops coach, and having zero to recruit for.

Again, Mac and Fernandez have had very similar paths.  Fernandez was a HUGE risk for USF, and it has finally paid off because we had the PATIENCE to allow it to unfold.  Maybe that will be the case with Mac, but you're just being an apologist for the previous regime if you try to contend that Mac had it made when he arrived and all he did was run off the talent to make our season bad.  The Baker situation was well documented, he didn't run him off, Baker already had two feet out the door by the time he arrived.  Ditto for Oglesby, the rest were attrition issues that were almost entirely out of the coaches hands.

Argue away why Mac's next three seasons won't be as fruitful as Fernandez, but both had a tough road to hoe, neither landed in a sweet situation and have been forced against the wall to make their own fortune.  Fernandez has paid off, and we'll see if Mac does.

[Cubanbull]

for those of you here impressed by Coach fernandez's success here now we will see if our athletic dept is able and willing to pay up. His contract runs out and either we are able to pay succesful coaches competitive salaries or we will lose them.

[the_dude]

Please tell me where you guys get this information. How do you know coaches' salaries and where can I find info on women's basketball recruiting?

I feel so uninformed

Thanks dudes.

[Guest S.  Bien]

Please tell me where you guys get this information. How do you know coaches' salaries and where can I find info on women's basketball recruiting?

I feel so uninformed

Thanks dudes.

This article was in today's Times.

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/03/02/Sports/High_academic_score_h.shtml

after the great news about our football graduation rates it mentions Fernandez and his salary.  I believe everyone involved expects Jose's going to get a hefty increase.  They realize that we're heading to the Big East which is one of the conferences where women's hoops is MILDLY PROFITABLE.  So any potentially profitable sport for the BE USF must embrace.  

[dabull80]

Bien,  I never said mens BB was in great shape when Mac got here but it certainly wasn't surrounded by the mess the womens team was when Fernandez became "interim" head coach.  He probably became that because no one else wanted the job.  Can you imagine the difficulty trying to recruit when your program has charges of racisim pending against it and you aren't the real coach just the "interim" head coach.  About the only thing else that could have been worse in the womens BB was if we NCAA sanctions on recruiting.  Now mac did not walk into Nervana when he came to USF and he was too late for the early signing period putting him behind the eight ball to beginn with.  I just feel that Mac wanted his system with his discipline and he was willing to pay the price no matter who stayed and who left.  Did he run some players off, of course he did.  Is this team more disiplined then in the past, yes it is.  It is his ship to steer as he sees fit but he also is the man who takes responsibility for its course.  I just think he had more control over the results in first two years then Fernandez did but yes they did have similar results no matter how they got there.