Thoughts on rivalries...

[BULLheaded]

Here is my question for you. If you had the chance to bring any team in the country to ray jay who would it be? Would you use that pick for UCF? Would UCF be in the top 5 of that list? Would you prefer them over UF, FSU, UM.....or more realistically would you rather it be them over Louisville, Pitt or WVU even? Not me, I'll take any of those teams along with a huge list of other teams before UCF would even get a thought. If you don't put them on the top of the list how can this really be an intense rivalry? If you do put them up there what is the attraction for you? Bragging rights for the state? Proof of how great a team we are? National exposure? National respect? Is it that they are so full of tradition and talent that being on the same field with them is great? Please help me here as I can't think of anything enticing in this game. Yes it's close but who really cares about distance if you don't care about the team?

Wow, This isn't a good example AT ALL.

Of COURSE there are other teams WE'D rather see at RJS.

You don't think Miami(OH) or Cincy would rather have UF or Miami come to their place? Of COURSE. That doesn't mean that game isn't a large rivalry.

You don't think Louisville would jump to have ND or Ohio State at Papa Johns over UK ? OF COURSE, that doesn't mean their rivalry with UK isn't big.

You don't think Utah would move their season ending game with BYU to get USC to visit them? OF Course

I'll concede that USF/UCF isn't a rivalry yet. However, it has the makings to be one:

1) Students and fans live in the same region. Many people know alumni of USF/UCF and work or went to school with them.

2) The game is realistic for both teams at this point. Sure we all know UF/FSU/Miami fans and students the same way, but realistically those schools aren't going to take us as a rival for a very long time

3) We recruit the same group guys. Many of the recruits play against each other, they take visits to schools with each other, they talk to each other, etc. Usually USF and UCF are battling for many of the same high school players and once they are in school they still know and talk to each other.

4) The campuses are 90 miles apart. Self explanatory.

5) Both want to be the "4th" team in the state.

Your right, settling for a team just because they are close makes much more sense.

I'm sorry but I guess my view on a true rivalry is very different. IMO a rivalry is about WANTING to play...or even better CRAVING to play the other team. Having the feeling that no matter what happened all year long as long as we beat THAT team things are good. I brought up that example to make you think about how badly you care about playing UCF instead of just thinking generically about a team that is 90 miles apart. Yeah, you tick all these "reasons" off about why this is a good "fit" like you can just fabricate something because it makes sense. BUT, do you really give a **** about playing UCF? forget about distance, about the "little two" about an extra 5k seats in the stands do you crave them coming over here over all else? Are they our measuring stick to the success of our program? Are you drooling at the mouth to keep this game over all others? When rivals meet there is this obvious feeling that each side thinks the other has something they need over all else and they won't quit until they get it, what I see in this game is UCF staring at us like that out of their hatred for us reaching a point they haven't and I see us glancing around them with the same look at bigger fish. They want what we have, we want much much more than they have to offer.

I just don't get the, they are close and we have this slot called "rivalry" that we need to fill so by default lets make it UCF.

[BullatFSU]

 If everyone can think back to a time long long ago and maybe a place far far away called high school, who was your biggest rival?  Usually the school closest to you because you were either friends with alot of people on that roster or have been playing against them since you were little and hate them with a passion.   

Usually, your rival team in HS is in the same confererence or cassification as you are, and you're competing for standings in conference. Let's say you went to a 5-A school in FLA, you're not going to have any real "rivalry" with the 4-A  (or 3-A or 6-A, whatver, you get the point) school down the road from you, no matter how close they might be, and how many players know each other, because you're not in the same division.

Your confusing important game with rivalry.  If we used your definintion here then UF FSU isnt a rivalry.  A rivalry is a game that standings conference titles etc all go out the window, a rivalry is personal and goes deeper then standings rankings etc.  A rivalry is a game that can make your season even if its the only game you win.  

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who would consider FSU-UF a true rivalry before 1978, say, even though they've played each other since the 50's.  It wasn't until both teams began competing at the same level year-in and year-out that it became a rivalry of any importance, especially to FSU fans.   Up until that point, FSU was an afterthought, they were bottom feeders that UF didn't really care about, and FSU fans were envious of the success of their conterparts in G'ville, but the game wasn't huge to them either.

So again, it's all about level of play. This is what I was getting at with the conference/division talk in my previous post. Up until '75-'76, I'd say UF-FSU was like a 6-A school playing a neigboring 3-A school and kicking their asses every year. Then over the course of the next several years, that 3-A school upped its enrollment and starting getting better players and coaches, and all of a sudden became a 6-A school on the same level as their opponent.

At this point, UCF is still a step behind USF. Not as drastic as the UF-FSU analogy above, but similar. USF is in the big-leagues already--they've got BCS affiliation, and all they lack is some consistent play at bowl-worthy level. UCF still is trying to get to that level.  A rivalry with a *slightly* bigger in-state brother is key to them, while it's not just that big of a deal to USF.  

why dont you go ask the players if its important or not.......And ok i used a bad example, ok how about USC Vs ND, UF Vs UGA.  Nitpicking my analogy doesnt prove anything, like i said it starts with the players and if you've read anything all from our players about this game they are amped and ready and treating it like a rivalry.  

Dude, it doesn't matter what example you want to use, the same rule applies. USC-ND was a rivaly because both teams were giants competing year in and year out for national supremacy.  UF and UGA were rivals because they were the big boys of the SEC, both competing for that conference championship on a yearly basis. Think about it--why didn't UF form a rivalry with GA Tech? They're just as close in proximity to UF as is UGA.  It all boils down to competing on a similar level for a BIG common goal. And if competing for notoriety in the state of FLA is the only common thing between UCF and USF, that's a pretty flimsy bond. Who gives a crap about the rivalry between Tennessee and Memphis, for instance, other than the players on either team that might have gone to HS together? No one. The fans don't. The nation doesn't. There's more to a rivalry than that, IMO.

[Bull Dozer]

 If everyone can think back to a time long long ago and maybe a place far far away called high school, who was your biggest rival?  Usually the school closest to you because you were either friends with alot of people on that roster or have been playing against them since you were little and hate them with a passion.   

Usually, your rival team in HS is in the same confererence or cassification as you are, and you're competing for standings in conference. Let's say you went to a 5-A school in FLA, you're not going to have any real "rivalry" with the 4-A  (or 3-A or 6-A, whatver, you get the point) school down the road from you, no matter how close they might be, and how many players know each other, because you're not in the same division.

Your confusing important game with rivalry.  If we used your definintion here then UF FSU isnt a rivalry.  A rivalry is a game that standings conference titles etc all go out the window, a rivalry is personal and goes deeper then standings rankings etc.  A rivalry is a game that can make your season even if its the only game you win.  

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who would consider FSU-UF a true rivalry before 1978, say, even though they've played each other since the 50's.  It wasn't until both teams began competing at the same level year-in and year-out that it became a rivalry of any importance, especially to FSU fans.   Up until that point, FSU was an afterthought, they were bottom feeders that UF didn't really care about, and FSU fans were envious of the success of their conterparts in G'ville, but the game wasn't huge to them either.

So again, it's all about level of play. This is what I was getting at with the conference/division talk in my previous post. Up until '75-'76, I'd say UF-FSU was like a 6-A school playing a neigboring 3-A school and kicking their asses every year. Then over the course of the next several years, that 3-A school upped its enrollment and starting getting better players and coaches, and all of a sudden became a 6-A school on the same level as their opponent.

At this point, UCF is still a step behind USF. Not as drastic as the UF-FSU analogy above, but similar. USF is in the big-leagues already--they've got BCS affiliation, and all they lack is some consistent play at bowl-worthy level. UCF still is trying to get to that level.  A rivalry with a *slightly* bigger in-state brother is key to them, while it's not just that big of a deal to USF.  

why dont you go ask the players if its important or not.......And ok i used a bad example, ok how about USC Vs ND, UF Vs UGA.  Nitpicking my analogy doesnt prove anything, like i said it starts with the players and if you've read anything all from our players about this game they are amped and ready and treating it like a rivalry.  

Dude, it doesn't matter what example you want to use, the same rule applies. USC-ND was a rivaly because both teams were giants competing year in and year out for national supremacy.  UF and UGA were rivals because they were the big boys of the SEC, both competing for that conference championship on a yearly basis. Think about it--why didn't UF form a rivalry with GA Tech? They're just as close in proximity to UF as is UGA. It all boils down to competing on a similar level for a BIG common goal. And if competing for notoriety in the state of FLA is the only common thing between UCF and USF, that's a pretty flimsy bond. Who gives a crap about the rivalry between Tennessee and Memphis, for instance, other than the players on either team that might have gone to HS together? No one. The fans don't. The nation doesn't. There's more to a rivalry than that, IMO.

Teams of similar ability level- Check

Competeing for a similar goal- Check

And if you think both schools are just competeing for notiriety in the state your dead wrong.  This game effects recruiting and both teams images nationally.  Both are seen as up coming schools in this state and the nation by most people that know college football.  If a school can dominate this game it will show it is the up in coming school in this state which will get it more national coverage and better recruits.  Doesnt seem flimsy to me at all.  If USF can go out there and win convincingly maybe they get some of those lil feel good up and coming program stories that ESPN and other outlets gave UCF a lil while back.  Both of these programs will be successful in the future, theres too much talent in this state for them not to (unless the administration gives up on one of them) the one that can get to a high level first will have a huge advantage and what better way to stay ahead then to play them and win.  Yes winning is not inevitable but if we are as good and so far ahead as alot of people think why not make them a whipping boy to show they arent on our level so we can get more national attention and an edge in the in state recruiting wars?  

[BULLheaded]

Teams of similar ability level- Check

Competeing for a similar goal- Check

Passion for this particular game - ?? oh wait I forgot that isn't a valid part of a rivalry

This game effects recruiting and both teams images nationally.  Both are seen as up coming schools in this state and the nation by most people that know college football.  If a school can dominate this game it will show it is the up in coming school in this state which will get it more national coverage and better recruits

Uh oh, Jim would you like to point out how untrue this is?

[Bull Dozer]

Teams of similar ability level- Check

Competeing for a similar goal- Check

Passion for this particular game - ?? oh wait I forgot that isn't a valid part of a rivalry

This game effects recruiting and both teams images nationally.  Both are seen as up coming schools in this state and the nation by most people that know college football.  If a school can dominate this game it will show it is the up in coming school in this state which will get it more national coverage and better recruits

Uh oh, Jim would you like to point out how untrue this is?

funny the only people i know that arent ready and excited for this game are people on this board.  Maybe its because im a student but still there is passion in a large portion of our fanbase.  

Dont see whats so wrong about that but im waiting for the typical we're already ahead garbage i read here.  

[BullatFSU]

Teams of similar ability level- Check

Competeing for a similar goal- Check

And if you think both schools are just competeing for notiriety in the state your dead wrong.  This game effects recruiting and both teams images nationally.  Both are seen as up coming schools in this state and the nation by most people that know college football.  If a school can dominate this game it will show it is the up in coming school in this state which will get it more national coverage and better recruits.  Doesnt seem flimsy to me at all.  If USF can go out there and win convincingly maybe they get some of those lil feel good up and coming program stories that ESPN and other outlets gave UCF a lil while back.  Both of these programs will be successful in the future, theres too much talent in this state for them not to (unless the administration gives up on one of them) the one that can get to a high level first will have a huge advantage and what better way to stay ahead then to play them and win.  Yes winning is not inevitable but if we are as good and so far ahead as alot of people think why not make them a whipping boy to show they arent on our level so we can get more national attention and an edge in the in state recruiting wars?  

"Similar level" does not always equal "similar ability", especially in the world of the BCS. The BE, as a BCS member,  is a higher level than is C-USA. Simple as that.  No matter how good UCF becomes in the C-USA, they'll not be competing "at the same level" as USF in the BE. Heck, they may even be able to beat USF, but they'll still be competing on a different level. They'll continue to have a harder time getting national notoriety and impressing the media. They'll continue to have a harder time getting decent bowls. And they'll continue to have a harder time recruiting.

USF already has those advantages over UCF, just based on it's affiliation with the Big East; so they're clearly NOT playing for the same things. UCF  needs to beat big-conference foes like USF to get there, while USF is already there. Again, the only thing they're playing for, IMO, is in-state notoriety. USF won't get any "lil feel good up and coming" stories by beating UCF, nor do they need that. They already got a taste of those stories by beating Louisville last year, and only a win as significant as that can generate that type of publicity; UCF-USF isn't even going to be a blip on any radar outside the state--and even within the state, few north of Orlando and east of Tampa will devote more than a minor head-nod to the game one way or the other. The type of publicity that it takes to generate interest from prize recruits is far more large-scale than that.

[Guest]

Your right, settling for a team just because they are close makes much more sense.

I'm sorry but I guess my view on a true rivalry is very different. IMO a rivalry is about WANTING to play...or even better CRAVING to play the other team. Having the feeling that no matter what happened all year long as long as we beat THAT team things are good. I brought up that example to make you think about how badly you care about playing UCF instead of just thinking generically about a team that is 90 miles apart. Yeah, you tick all these "reasons" off about why this is a good "fit" like you can just fabricate something because it makes sense. BUT, do you really give a **** about playing UCF? forget about distance, about the "little two" about an extra 5k seats in the stands do you crave them coming over here over all else? Are they our measuring stick to the success of our program? Are you drooling at the mouth to keep this game over all others? When rivals meet there is this obvious feeling that each side thinks the other has something they need over all else and they won't quit until they get it, what I see in this game is UCF staring at us like that out of their hatred for us reaching a point they haven't and I see us glancing around them with the same look at bigger fish. They want what we have, we want much much more than they have to offer.

I just don't get the, they are close and we have this slot called "rivalry" that we need to fill so by default lets make it UCF.

Now that is a reason why it's not a rivalry, and probably won't be.  I had not looked at it like that.

[Guest]

This game effects recruiting and both teams images nationally.  Both are seen as up coming schools in this state and the nation by most people that know college football.  If a school can dominate this game it will show it is the up in coming school in this state which will get it more national coverage and better recruits

Uh oh, Jim would you like to point out how untrue this is?

Sure:

This game does not have any effect on recruits.*

Let me say that again.

This game does not have any effect on recruits.*

UCF to recruit: We have an on-campus stadium... indoor practice facility... play in Conference USA against Tulsa, Rice, and UTEP... oh, and we can beat USF.

USF to recruit: We play in a first class NFL stadium... have a new athletic training facility... play in the Big East Conference against Louisville, West Virginia, and Pittsburgh... oh, and with your help we could play for a national championship.

(*IMHO)

[JoeB]

"They want what we have, we want much much more than they have to offer."

This was how UF was with FSU back in the late 50s.  I'm not making this up.  History repeats itself people.  Look it up.

[BullatFSU]

"They want what we have, we want much much more than they have to offer."

This was how UF was with FSU back in the late 50s.  I'm not making this up.  History repeats itself people.  Look it up.

I'm sure it was. But I'd rather not form a "rivalry" that won't come to fruition for another 20-30 years (as long as it took for the UF-FSU game to become any sort of real game) if we don't have to.