The concept of a student-athlete

[Brad]

The concept of a student-athlete seems to be at issue with some that want to win at all costs and others that want to win within the rules and laws of society.

When you contemplate a potential recruit, do you consider his criminal background to be relevant?  How about his intent to try to get an education?  Would a "thug" be okay if he doesn't commit crime but somehow manages to stay academically eligible until his playing days at USF are over and the NBA/Europe/CBA YMCA Mens League beckons?

Same goes for a coach, if a coach has a history of recruiting kids that have no intention of graduating, is that okay with you?  

No one is passing judgment on your beliefs, but I invite you to take part in the attached poll as I try to assess exactly what most of feel about bringing in a criminal-athlete or a "non-student athlete" and/or bringing in a coach that does not share a vision of educating kids, only "gettting them ready" for the NBA, NFL, life without an education, etc.

To keep it simple, it is asked in black and white.

Do you favor a concept of student-athlete in which recruiting/being a student is a requirement of the program, i.e. education and graduation is part of the intent.  Rules are to be followed, laws are to remain unbroken.

or

Do you not favor the concept of student athlete, i.e. just get talent in here.  Get them through their 2-4 years and move on.  You'll accept graduation rates in the 20-30% range and early exits to the NBA or a state mandated work release program don't matter to you, just keep churning the athletes for the sake of the "W".

[USFPhil]

I do favor the concept of a student athlete  that should be the number one goal for an institution of higher learning not to mention you can create the best athletic programs based on this concept.  For example look at the most sucessful coach's like Bobby Knight or Coach K at these schools thug like behavior will not be tolerated.  

[LDD]

Nobody disputes the notion of student athlete, but for people on this board to accuse huggins of being some demogouge is just ridiculous.  One of the reasons his graduation rate was low, was the intention of his players to come to cinci and then move on to the NBA.  Is that a crime?

Is Stanford's golf team's graduation rate low because Tiger Wood's left early.  HOw about UNC's graduation rate. ?  Their entrie freakin team left early.  Graduation rates are the most overhyped -- over played stat in the business.  The graduation rate is only relavent if your players stay 4 or 5 years.  

Many of Huggins players left early.  Many of them came back to graduate.

How about Stackhouse, Vince Carter, Steve Francis, Joe Smith,  Matt Walsh, Joesph Forte, Corey Magette, Elton Brand, EVERONE LEAVES EARLY.  

I mean GIVE ME A BREAK.  

Why don't you guys just admit to the fact that you will  embrace any excuse that shelters our school from the criticisms it deserves.

We have a basketball coach in Huggins who went to 12 straight NCAA tourny appearances, went to a final four, has recruited and coached well over 10 NBA players, who might be interested in coaching our team and you guys want to talk about student athletes.

Yes I embrace student athelets, but it is important to get good players.  A 100% graduation rate and a team that goes 5-25 does nothing for me.

LongDong

[Apis Bull]

You act like they are mutually exclusive, that we can't run a clean program that graduates players and still wins.  I will go on record right now saying that I do not want Huggins.  If he were to be hired by USF, I would support him, but that's not the same as liking him.

[Brad]

Nice response LDD.  Really.  But this post was really more for your brother Rueb, who seems to think we would want a Marcus Vick or others of his ilk, if we could just win.  Open the prisons and the free clinics - bring USF some help.

I think most people (again, except for The Sheriff) think we should recruit coaches and players that fit into the University role of educating students.

Our hoops program is in trouble, it has been for some time.  I believe we are fixing it the correct (and far more painful) way - building it with some integrity and discipline.  That's the high road and unfortunately the long road.  I'm alright with that regardless of the insults you will fling.

You have your opinion and a fixation on a coach that will likely never sit on the home side of the court.   It's okay to dream as you say, but that may be one helluva long dream.  

[Velcro]

You act like they are mutually exclusive, that we can't run a clean program that graduates players and still wins.  I will go on record right now saying that I do not want Huggins.  If he were to be hired by USF, I would support him, but that's not the same as liking him.

I second that!

But that is a huge if and I don't see it happening... ever.

[Guest rueben_horowitz]

 But this post was really more for your brother Rueb, who seems to think we would want a Marcus Vick or others of his ilk, if we could just win.  Open the prisons and the free clinics - bring USF some help. 

If you ever call Ari my brother again I will hunt you down.  

Don't try and paint me as a "win at all costs" guy, b/c I'm not. I just think there's a lot of hypocrites in here that will accept almost anything that gets us into a BSC bowl; yet since they don't care about bb as much, they put on a "holier than thou" attitude towards Huggy.

My point is simple. Some kids are given brains, some are given athletic talent, some are given brains, looks, and athletic talent (Me..LOL).

Huggins gives the dumb kid with talent and attitude problems a chance and usually makes him a winner. He's done a very good job of that. He treats his players like family; they're always over at his house etc. He tries hard to instill values in his players. Sometimes this fails, but for the most part it works very well for everyone - the fans, the school, and the players.

[Markeymark]

In basketball, having high graduation rate and being very successful in Division 1 are mutually exclusive. This is because the professional leagues dangle a lot of money in front of these kids when they are still teenagers, far from graduation and they go for the money. For the most part, I don't blame them - the object of college for the majority of people is to improve their chances at earning a decent living.

I think this is different from the concept of "thug" which implies someone with low moral character and a penchant for breaking the boundaries of social decency.

You look at schools like Duke, who project an image of squeaky-clean high academics, and you find out that a lot of kids left early which has affected their graduation rate. Does this put Coach K in the same league as Huggins or Tarkanian, etc?

You could look at a school like Memphis, who does not profess to have high graduation rates, and actually encourages kids to come for 1-2 years on the way to the NBA. Is that somehow bad? The fans get what they want (wins) and the kids get a chance to showcase their skills in the NCAA tournament and then get drafted and make their money. This is the system that exists in this country. I don't think this system needs to be confused with "thugs" or criminal elements, etc. because it doesn't have to be.

[Bull94]

If you ever call Ari my brother again I will hunt you down.  

Don't try and paint me as a "win at all costs" guy, b/c I'm not. I just think there's a lot of hypocrites in here that will accept almost anything that gets us into a BSC bowl; yet since they don't care about bb as much, they put on a "holier than thou" attitude towards Huggy.

My point is simple. Some kids are given brains, some are given athletic talent, some are given brains, looks, and athletic talent (Me..LOL).

Huggins gives the dumb kid with talent and attitude problems a chance and usually makes him a winner. He's done a very good job of that. He treats his players like family; they're always over at his house etc. He tries hard to instill values in his players. Sometimes this fails, but for the most part it works very well for everyone - the fans, the school, and the players.

If we ever have a football player arrested for **** and another on gun charges, I would expect them to be kicked off the team and kicked out of school. I believe Huggins had this happen to 2 of his players this past year. It goes to show you the quality of character that he recruits. There is a reason why Cincy fired him.

and by the way, all those that don't care whether or not he graduates players, I believe there is a rule  in place starting this year that takes away schollies for poor graduation rates.

[Bull94]

In basketball, having high graduation rate and being very successful in Division 1 are mutually exclusive. This is because the professional leagues dangle a lot of money in front of these kids when they are still teenagers, far from graduation and they go for the money. For the most part, I don't blame them - the object of college for the majority of people is to improve their chances at earning a decent living.

I think this is different from the concept of "thug" which implies someone with low moral character and a penchant for breaking the boundaries of social decency.

You look at schools like Duke, who project an image of squeaky-clean high academics, and you find out that a lot of kids left early which has affected their graduation rate. Does this put Coach K in the same league as Huggins or Tarkanian, etc?

You could look at a school like Memphis, who does not profess to have high graduation rates, and actually encourages kids to come for 1-2 years on the way to the NBA. Is that somehow bad? The fans get what they want (wins) and the kids get a chance to showcase their skills in the NCAA tournament and then get drafted and make their money. This is the system that exists in this country. I don't think this system needs to be confused with "thugs" or criminal elements, etc. because it doesn't have to be.

You're way off on Duke. Most of his players stay in school all 4 years. Redick and Williams are both seniors. If you think their grad rates are even comparable to Cincys then you are completely lost.

How about all of the arrests that happened at Cincy and UNLV under those coaches? Does that project an image of thuggery?