Just Hugs being Hugs? Not illegal, but not right

[Brad]

I guess I don't understand how it is any different than a kid changing his mind on signing day.   The situation is fluid right up until the

Huggins was given the salary and had the connections to make it happen.  Nobody forced anybody to do anything.  I mean obviously the Zabian episode at USF was somewhat similar.  A commit to USF on USF's dime and Greenberg took him to VT and he turned out to be a pretty good player.

Just because he verballed a month or two ahead of signing day doesn't mean he has to do anything until signing day.  

Again, I agree.  However, this is not an argument of legal or illegal.  If you ask Huggins, he'll say there is nothing wrong with it.  If you ask Bobby Lutz he might well feel differently.  I would.  I would be angrier at Dalonte Hill selling out than I would Huggins though.

Bottom line is that Huggins is resorting to practices only a small percentage of coaches would reduce to.  Yes, his desire to win, even at the expense of turning the knife in the back of a friend, is great and it paints an accurate portrayal of the stuff of which he is made.

[Brad]

I'm trying to get my bearings on this thread.  Are people trying to say, "see, I told you Huggins was a guy that deals in the gray areas and is a little shady?" or "see Huggins is going to build an instant winner?"

If it is either of those you are both right.

I think it is both...

[Triple B]

I know Huggins was never coming to USF, but could you imagine that headline in a Tampa paper?  USF in hunt for Top 3 players in the country?

That would be hilarious.  1-15 to that mentioned as a possible recruiting class.   Gerard Arcement would have nothing on that class.

I have a feeling it wouldn't have been "USF in hunt for Top 3 players in the country" but rather "Huggins in hunt for Top 3 players in the country". It all would have been about him. Just a feeling that this, like KSU, would have been a way station for Huggy. I'd much rather see a coach grow up with the program, whether it's CRM or whoever.

[USFreak]

Again, I agree.  However, this is not an argument of legal or illegal.  If you ask Huggins, he'll say there is nothing wrong with it.  If you ask Bobby Lutz he might well feel differently.  I would.  I would be angrier at Dalonte Hill selling out than I would Huggins though.

Bottom line is that Huggins is resorting to practices only a small percentage of coaches would reduce to.  Yes, his desire to win, even at the expense of turning the knife in the back of a friend, is great and it paints an accurate portrayal of the stuff of which he is made.

Lutz apparently gave his permission for Huggins to talk to Hill.  It is like one of those situations where Charlotte may not like the outcome, but in major college sports that's how it goes down.  Coaches of mid-majors and successful assistants (and assistants with 'extras') are ripe for the picking from bigger, more traditional programs.  The thing is Huggins has been recruiting a bunch of these guys for years -  Mayo has been in the pipeline since middle school.  That was all done on Cincy's dime.  Does that mean Cincy has some claim to him?  The reality is if a coach goes to another school some percentage of past work goes with him as well.

I'm sure Lee Roy wasn't nuts about giving Alabama permission to talk to Leavitt either.  Charlotte will still have a decent program after this episode.  USF would have just been decimated if Leavitt had left at that point.  Not because of the recruits, but moreso just because at that stage in USF's history a coaching change would have just been bad timing.

[USFreak]

I have a feeling it wouldn't have been "USF in hunt for Top 3 players in the country" but rather "Huggins in hunt for Top 3 players in the country". It all would have been about him.

For sure.  Nobody is saying any different.  I think the consensus was wherever Huggy ended up would enjoy the spoils -- good and bad.

[CyberBull]

I have a feeling it wouldn't have been "USF in hunt for Top 3 players in the country" but rather "Huggins in hunt for Top 3 players in the country". It all would have been about him. Just a feeling that this, like KSU, would have been a way station for Huggy. I'd much rather see a coach grow up with the program, whether it's CRM or whoever.

It's good press and gives the program legitimacy. If one of these three kids blows up and becomes the next Lebron James or Carmelo Anthony as some "experts" have predicted I'd imagine that there would be a rush on USF jersey's across the country. That builds the brand and if it takes Huggins getting mentioned first so be it...There are a lot of programs around the country who are built around the coach.

[CyberBull]

Again, it does happen all some of the time, but I can not say that your example passes the apples to apples test.  I do not believe Mosley and SoJo were committed (verbally or otherwise) to a school Brunell WORKED FOR before Brunell was hired at USF.  They were ready to move to a DI-A school and moved with Brunell.  It's not like Brunell worked at FSU and took them to USF.  they were leaving DBCC, it was just a matter of whereto.

It's just a matter of where one chooses to delineate fair and ethical play.  Legal, sure - the writer points that out.  Would a majority of coaches approve such a practice?  I doubt it.

Coaches are poor people to ask about ethics considering they make hundreds of thousands of dollars unpaid college athletes. They also get to move around from job to job at will, while the kids they signed on signing day b/c of the coach are stuck.

We also need to remember that most of the time when impact kids like Bailey commit early they usually wind up signing somewhere else. It's happened numerous times recently at places like Kansas, UNC and even Duke. It happens in all sports. Remember our friend JAred FAyson committing during his junior year. He figured out that he was under-recruited for his tastes and said good bye USF. IMO, KSU didn't get Lutz's kid some other 'big conference' program would have done the same.

[USFreak]

It's good press and gives the program legitimacy. If one of these three kids blows up and becomes the next Lebron James or Carmelo Anthony as some "experts" have predicted I'd imagine that there would be a rush on USF jersey's across the country. That builds the brand and if it takes Huggins getting mentioned first so be it...There are a lot of programs around the country who are built around the coach.

Yeah, but that is a slippery slope.  Huggins would be a calculated risk by anybody's estimation.  I think he can deliver a winner, but at what expense.  I think it comes down to how desperately a team wants to win.  That goes for USF or anybody.

I'm not sure I'd equate it to the Terrell Owens incident, but there are certainly parallels.   Would you want T.O. on your team?  He's a great player, but the baggage just isn't worth it.

Now I'd argue that T.O. can absolutely ruin a team chemistry, though.  Huggins, you would assume, is controlling that team chemistry.  Most kids that sign on with Huggy know what they are getting into.  Same with Knight for the most part.  Huggins plays intense defense and demands 120% from every player on that floor at every time.  If he doesn't get it he'll punch you in the mouth - literally.  

Cincinnati had a reputation and it was well-deserved.  The Oakland Raiders of the NCAA.  Now with that reputation came a lot of postseason appearances and Cincy could be qualified as a great team with some absolute studs passing through -- Van Exel, Kenyon Martin, etc.  

Tough call, though.  I'm not sure every basketball player out there is ready to play for Duke with stellar academics, suit and tie and can flat out hoop it up.  I mean honestly even McCullum has made some boneheaded signings.  Guys he thought were quality and could turn it around, but in the end needed to get the boot.

The difference may just be that Huggins can play and coach this brand of renegade.  Probably most of them wouldn't last a day in Roy Williams system, but Jim Calhoun can always coach them. :-)

[Guest S.  Bien]

Lutz apparently gave his permission for Huggins to talk to Hill.  It is like one of those situations where Charlotte may not like the outcome, but in major college sports that's how it goes down.  Coaches of mid-majors and successful assistants (and assistants with 'extras') are ripe for the picking from bigger, more traditional programs.  The thing is Huggins has been recruiting a bunch of these guys for years -  Mayo has been in the pipeline since middle school.  That was all done on Cincy's dime.  Does that mean Cincy has some claim to him?  The reality is if a coach goes to another school some percentage of past work goes with him as well.

I'm sure Lee Roy wasn't nuts about giving Alabama permission to talk to Leavitt either.  Charlotte will still have a decent program after this episode.  USF would have just been decimated if Leavitt had left at that point.  Not because of the recruits, but moreso just because at that stage in USF's history a coaching change would have just been bad timing.

This is a very semantical argument.  First, one should not create another.  I have no problem with Huggy Thug hiring Hill from Lutz and crew.  A man has a right to better himself.  However, providing they don't immediately go on the offensive and begin recruiting this star athlete aggressively.  If the kid makes a personal choice that the only reason he was going to Charlotte is Hill then go ahead and change, but don't change his mind for him.

Now the other matter of hiring an AAU coach, and guardian of Walker and Mayo.  First, that's dirty and it doesn't and isn't relevant to circumstances of say hiring Frank Burnell, or Simmonds, or anything USF has done.  It isn't the same thing, hell Burnell was a qualified college coach let's not cross wires here because among the coaching ranks, except on rare occasions, hiring an unqualified family member in order to secure a commitment from another family member is generally considered low.  There are exceptions where possibly a family member is already qualified as a coach, or possibly the family member is an alum of that school, but in the case of Walker and Mayo, if Huggy Thug goes ahead and hires their unqualified guardian, that's just low, very tacty, and exemplifies exactly what you're going to get with Huggy- a guy that skirts the rules, ignores etiquette, and is generally perceived by his peers exactly as he is by the general public.  

I stand by my believe that 90% of these times when a coach leaves a big program or opportunity then pursues another opportunity at a less prominent program they usually end less dramatic and inspired- Tark at FSU, Knight, Massamino at UNLV....

[Guest S.  Bien]

I actually don't think he'll be at Kansas State long enough to make it an issue.  He'll win quickly and likely only be there 3 years.  One or two early NBA announcements and he'll move on.  Enough time to make a quick mark, build up some 'good behavior' capital and end up in a major media market again....or so my theory goes.

After all, have you been to Manhattan, KS?  I have a friend that goes to Antartica for years at a time.  I could understand working the summer there (4 mos. rotation), but she goes for years.  To be honest Antartica seems a lot more inviting than Manhattan. :-)

My true theory is if the WVU position comes open that is where he'll be to finish his career.  He may be a little shady, but he's an alum and maybe you treat your school better than you treat your employer?

That could be it Freak, but I heard very recently, once all this Huggy wave hit, that this guy is damaged goods.  I would be shocked if a BE team would be allowed to hire him.  I think your theory about the NBA would be accurate.  This guy might win a few 20 game seasons then immediately jump to the NBA.  That's where he's probably destine to go, grab $5M a year coaching prima donnas then retire into the sunset.