I like GOOOOLD (and green)

And if you take out their highest draw, a school a half hour away, that draws people just for their halftime show, what does that do to their avg attendance? Considering, like mentioned above, it was a school a half hour away with a band that puts butts in seats, their first home game following that awesome year, where I guess they had some sort of Fiesta Bowl trophy presentation, a sellout should have been a slam dunk for that game .... and they never came close again No offense, ECU, but I had to laugh when the link that I think you looked at came up, http://www.voodoofive.com/2014/1/14/5306018/2013-was-the-worst-attended-season-in-the-bcs-era-for-usf-football . That wasn't driven by some national media attention. That site is run by an ex-USF employee who, at times, wouldn't be a stretch to call "disgruntled". Not saying the figures aren't accurate, I'm sure they are, but as you yourself said, there are very few programs that have to report actual butts in seats. Our figures do look high but there's really nothing to compare them with on a national basis. I'm sure there are plenty of programs where the two figures are close but may be just as many that are just as inflated. You will notice that the article had nothing whatsoever definitive about other programs. It was an article that makes JK look a USF cheerleader. BCC was their opening game, and biggest turnout, sure. In the interest of being completely objective lets just take out the highest and lowest attendance games-which gives us an average attendance of ~38k. Not much variance. As far as your second response, I don't know what you're looking for considering I answered that I felt there should have been a sellout in there somewhere, and found it curious that there wasn't. It seems you are arguing semantics when the bottom line is-and the point was that regardless of 'sell outs', they still had easily the second best attendance in the conference by a sizable margin despite having a hard-to-argue-with deplorable home schedule. I don't know former USF writers, I do know that SBnation is a large media outlet though, their stories get circulated nationally. I also came across that one searching 'USF football attendance' and it was the second most prominent link (lots of clicks). I did not reference any of the other headlines that popped up for the search, nor did I click on them to see what they had to say...the descriptions were not positive WRT attendance for the most part so I don't think it was an isolated article. I don't understand why you winked at the end of your comment when essentially all you said was that the guy was a former employee who went to a bigger platform, and that he provided facts to show the scale of amendments made, particularly of late...and that there are plenty of schools whose figures are probably close, but that there might be some who have similar records of fudging. How can an article using objective data make another writer I assume to be a debbie downer appear to be a cheerleader even make sense? How is that wink-worthy? I think you are being defensive when it isn't necessary. Perhaps I should take a step back before somebody gets " " and I get " ".

I am certain USF was once a bigger draw, I am operating in the present though, and with the most respect possible in the present that is not the case. As someone else said comparing your best years in a power conference with big time home games (the original point regarding attendance) to a team in a lesser conference doesn't paint a very accurate picture relevant to today. You really just underscored my point that quality of home opponent plays a big role in attendance numbers, which should be obvious, I didn't expect that to be a sticking point.

Things will turn around, makes it sweeter when they do. Stay positive, I see a better season for USF. As far as the stadium size compared to ST sales go, I can be swayed to think that smaller venues provide better opportunities for more STs, but a convincing argument in favor of that hasn't been presented yet. There aren't many stadiums where you can buy nosebleeds and work your way down. We did it once at ECU when the game should have been a rainout, but that's it. That is a problem unique to USF and few others primarily due to massive size of the stadium relative to actual fan turnout. As far as actual numbers vs college released numbers, once again USF had the negative benefit of a third party with access to that information expose them. That's a detraction to having a leased stadium and not your own, I guess. I do find it curious that the school couldn't work out a tight enough relationship with TSA to keep that info on the down low, but maybe that's an unrealistic position. There's no way to find true butt in seat data for schools that have their own stadium like ECU and UCF, I can say in the games I have attended between the two schools that the announced attendance did appear rather accurate, to where the 'fudging' was probably within 1-5% of actual attendance. I can say though that according to the previously mentioned article, USF has been overestimating their attendance at an increasing rate since they fell on hard times: In 2013, their actual attendance was only 58% of reported attendance...that is a huge difference.

If you want to come here and tout ECU's season tix and fanbase, by all means .... You guys are doing a great job .... but stop with the excuses for UCF. Are you telling me you wouldn't have sold out one game following a year like that? ..... and I'm certainly not following your point that a larger stadium should have more ST holders than winning programs with smaller stadiums when we've had 14 wins in 4 years .... and I know you were talking about them getting screwed scheduling wise pertaining to attendance, supposedly, but they were royally blessed by scheduling the last two years by avoiding one of the top teams in the conference both years. Finally, if you have the links to those national outlets where we were singled out for attendance fudging, could you post them? Not questioning because I think I vaguely remember that but just wanted to revisit to makes sure it was apples to apples and all. I'm not going to make excuses, just making an observation based on quality of opponents and the relation to attendance. They played Tulsa, Tulane, SMU, and BCC for crying out loud. Quick math shows that if you take out the SMU game, which was their lowest draw at ~31k that their avg attendance for the year was a shade under 40K. That's not bad for that kind of competition coming through their stadium, its only a few thousand below capacity. Close your eyes and think about the type of team you would expect to be playing that group of teams and then picture their crowd size...does it scream ~40k to you? Not me... I don't know how I feel about your 'selling out a game' question, I agree in theory that they should have been able to do it at least once-but against whom? BCC was their biggest draw, yet were ~800 off the pace, once again, not bad really considering . BYU is completely overrated as a traveling fan base. Throw in the fact that a lot of teams big and small are struggling even maintaining ST base and you have to pat the schools on the back that are able to grow-even if it is nominal growth in a G5 conference. My theory on the matter of stadium size vs ST could be wrong. To me, it makes sense that a larger capacity would equate to larger presence of ST opportunities. I can see how that could not necessarily be true, but when considering the money aspect of it, i think we can agree that there is more money to be made off ST holders than students/single game tix. From that aspect alone, a larger stadium would afford the athletic department flexibility to maximize the number of higher revenue packages (ST, club, biz, etc) in the form of more seats (perhaps at a better deal than otherwise for a smaller stadium-the walmart effect of marketing) while not sacrificing the placement or scope of vital sections for the students. I digress... To the point of links to USF attendance numbers and whatnot, I am not certain of guidelines and such for this forum and material...but I came across one just by googling 'USF football attendance'. It was the second link. I wasn't looking for it, so they are easy to find. It did have a nice chart laying out various attendance figures, which was useful for my initial ECU USF UCF comparison. And, to the guy that dismissed my comment by saying something to the effect of 'all schools inflate their numbers, so it doesn't mean anything': In my post I acknowledged that already; the degree of detail to which the article suggested that USF altered numbers was significant enough to merit media attention, and rightfully so, there was some damming stuff on there. It was meaningful. But, I also said that will change with winning, so there is no need to go sour grapes on something you don't like to hear. I, for one, understand that ECU benefits from a strong USF, UCF, Cincy, etc on the field as well as in the stands. Which is why I responded to this thread anyway-because I don't understand why some criticize UCF's attendance when first, its not that shabby, two it's better than USF's, three it's actually solidly the second best in the conference ( behind ECU)...and I say it was a darn good atmosphere/rowdy crowd the one game I've been to there given its size, and four that it's mutually beneficial to both our fan bases that they do well. Even moreso for USF than ECU, like it or not..especially if you're interested in being invited to a power party one day. That might be a sore subject, so I tread lightly. If UCF pulls off a strong year this year, they are probably going to hold the golden key to P5 expansion, whenever that happens. A strong season might not even be necessary for that to happen. I would like to see ECU get in there somehow of course, but we gonna do fine either way...we have the best team in a pretty good fb state through all levels. It might not be FLA or TX but we do fine. I know UCF is your rival, but as long as you don't play them it seems like a good team to root for. That's how I feel about USF, UCF, Mem, Temple, and to a much lesser extent NCST bc they are OOC.

Not to be funny but you know a little perspective is in order when discussing ST sales for a giant stadium in USF's case compared to much smaller stadiums like ECU and UCF right? USF should have more ST sales. This will be the ninth consecutive season that ECU will sell more than 20K ST, albeit with a smaller student and single ticket (to lesser extent) section compared to some schools. UCF, while having ST #'s that may seem low considering their success, actually broke their ST sale record for the 5th straight year-in April. They also have what I would say is the largest student section in the conference by a considerable margin. It is larger than many P5 schools, though $ comes into play for the cost of seats of course....perspective all around. STs are a nice measure of fan engagement, but not as nice as the butt-in-seat index, which is currently USF's real problem. I noticed while searching for ST sales that USF was exposed by national outlets as being TOO generous with their attendance figures, a major feat considering that everyone inflates their #'s a bit. The fact it was bad enough to get singled out suggests that the school is aware of their problem to the point of augmenting numbers beyond what's considered reasonable. Wins will change that, but another aspect that I noticed is that USF has enjoyed a better quality of home opponents compared to ECU...and UCF for that matter. For example, USF is probably UCF's biggest home draw this year-and that is not meant as a slight. We at least got to enjoy UNC last year, UCF has kinda gotten screwed scheduling wise tbh...I think their numbers would be higher if a NC State and Maryland-backed home schedule was considered a 'bad' schedule. Even Syracuse, Cincy, Temple, Memphis isn't a bad home draw...and FAU has a decent following and name recognition. I saw nothing wrong with the article, btw. It seemed rather objective.

I think he meant that they will get out of the CoA stipend game ...not sure though.

Just watched a video of George O'Leary talking about cost of attendance stipend. He brought up a good point that he doesn't see how non P5 schools will be able to sustain the numbers they are giving out...thinks it will put many schools out of the game altogether ultimately. FWIW he didn't give an exact amount for UCF's stipend but said its around 5k give or take a hundred. Just also read that they spent only 226K on recruiting last year, so they will spend much more on stipends than actual recruiting.

For #1, I picked SMU, Memphis, and Houston due to their potential to be big players in both football and basketball. By that logic, I should have picked UConn, but don't feel much for the direction of their football program. For #2 and #3 I picked Cincy because I think they will win the most games. Not a big fan of theirs, however. #4 I picked Tulsa and Tulane for what appear to be obvious reasons to me, though I respect that Tulane has a significant history as well as prime location. WTF to whoever picked ECU here... #5 I picked Memphis, though I have no vested interest in their success...just think if their football can match their basketball they will help the AAC immensely. However, I totally would pick Navy in hindsight...completely forgot about them despite me making the poll. #6 USF vs UCF has the best storyline #7 ECU vs FLA and Memphis vs Ole Miss because they stand a chance of winning; UCF vs Stanford bc that would be a big win for the conference; Navy vs Notre Dame is a classic.

Maybe that's the problem, because I was able to edit it initially. I really did not mean to put ECU in there twice, I swear! Cincy was a bad one to leave off too...it should have been Tulane-if anybody.

I don't see the edit function anymore...am I just missing it?

I made a poll, please input your choices with as little bias as possible...no picking ECU for all the good questions!

Been to one game at the UCF stadium...It was mostly full on the inside with a lot of people on the outside. Tailgating was big, it was a loud crowd (louder than when they came to ECU last year)...and the bouncing was fun actually-it added to the atmosphere. I am partial to my new school, but I have no/heard no complaints about the stadium experience there aside from the USF contingency...and no problems getting water there??? I'm sure there's a story behind that, I had a good time though. I haven't been to a USF game yet, but I will be at the game when USF comes to town November 7th. Just for reference, I have been to a few college games aside from Florida ones, and I would say that just because a school might be in a power conference does not mean that they have a better experience. I would rate the UCF one as my third favorite behind the Neyland Stadium experience in Knoxville then Sanford Stadium in Athens so far...mainly due to the bouncy seats (which oddly catch flack here) and the tailgating experience-which showed the potential such a large school has. I am excited for the opportunity to go to the Pitt vs Louisville game Nov 21st. I hope its not too cold, looking forward to something different.

The point of bringing up the population was to show that Tampa and Orlando are essentially growing together into a single population center. If I was more proficient at posting tables I would show ones that have 4/7 of the highest population density counties in the entire state right along I4, for example. The growth projection for both is impressive; and the 4 year growth rate (2010-2014) shows it...Orlando 7.4% growth and Tampa 3.8% growth. Yes, Tampa is still the bigger city, no one is arguing otherwise. After combing through all the Census figures, Jax definitely screws things up with their giant land mass. They have 8 times the area that Orlando has, for example...though it appears Orlando is really small area-wise, roughly the same footprint as Knoxville, tn.

George O'Leary seems to be a respected individual as far as I can tell. I know he has a positive relationship with some important people at UT...the two schools have history beyond playing each other in football...which could be relevant to the BIG 12 conversation, but probably not. My opinion isn't important, but I think the global view of his image is not affected by his resume fudging anymore...he paid for his mistake in most peoples' eyes and has subsequently accomplished more than most in the game have over the past 15 years or so. The Planchard incident was a tragedy first and foremost, but he had little to do with that really. Kids with the sickle cell trait can't respire oxygen properly at the tissue level, he probably shouldn't have played football beyond HS tbh and certainly knew the risk. If a bball player goes into a diabetic coma after exertion and ultimately dies is a coach responsible? All you can do as a coach/program is provide faster emergency services. I'm pretty sure UCF addressed that, and built an indoor practice facility I think which probably helps a bit too...maybe not for sickle cell complications, but certainly for heat exposure. After playing HS FB in Oviedo I understand how big a deal that is. These Carolina kids have no idea what its like to play FB in FLA...though it goes both ways as I could not imagine playing towards the end of the season when its in the 30's and rainy. I recognize where I am so I am not trying to be funny when I say this, but considering what he has done for that school...IF he manages to get them to the BIG 12 AND/OR manages to set them up for the playoff/championship I would not be surprised if he is a college football hall of fame member after he retires. He is a terrible recruiter though...

I think if the BIG 12 expands USF should be included, but Tampa will not always be the biggest FLA market. That will belong to Miami...and Orlando will pass Tampa in population in ~20 years according to census projections fwiw. It doesn't really matter as the entire I-4 corridor will be one of the biggest population centers in the country...becoming a megalopolis together by 2035-2040.

No, ended up going the ECU route.

It probably takes 15-20 minutes to get to the Citrus Bowl once you are on the 408..That traffic by the school on Alafaya thru waterford lakes could take 20 minutes by itself on a busy day. My mom lives in Carillon, that's the only bearing I have on the matter though, so maybe I'm missing something. What exactly is the argument here regarding the game? That UCF would not be happy with FSU playing at the Citrus Bowl? I don't think it really registers, I think there are a lot of dual citizen-fans in that area for UCF/FSU, though according to my family UCF and OCSC (off topic) are trending. The reason I am posting, and forgive the outsiders view-but I was hoping to understand the USF/UCF-education dynamic? When I was looking at Dental schools (what brought me to USF and ultimately this forum via my football fandom) I looked at school rankings and while USF's grad programs are certainly more established UCF's grad facilities are no joke...even though they ultimately did not get the dental school setup they have a nice thing going there. As far as the colleges go, USF is ranked 161 and UCF 173...not really a big difference. Both are good. ECU isn't even ranked, and its a really fun place! Go Pirates, Argh!

They also got a 4-star corner in Causey. I am new to recruiting in general( and to this forum!), but I like what I see so far from all three schools (ECU, USF, UCF). I tend to follow espn's recruiting most since they have the widest reach, but 247 has an interesting system it would seem. I think I prefer averages over total points-which to my untrained self seems to favor volume over quality. It makes me wonder what USF does right in their recruiting to get such solid results despite recent down times? If ECU could couple that recruiting with their in-state enthusiasm/fan following I think they could be primed for P5 status. It also amazes me how middling UCF's recruiting looks on paper most years (this one being exception) yet they turn out solid players left and right it seems. There seem to be many forces at work on all ends. Not very impressed with Cincy's haul, tbh.