BULLheaded

Passion for this particular game - ?? oh wait I forgot that isn't a valid part of a rivalry Uh oh, Jim would you like to point out how untrue this is?

Can you clarify this a bit?? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I don't understand how USF benefits from NOT playing the game. We have the edge right now, due to a stroke of luck we have the BCS tag and we have access (regardless of likelihood) to a national championship and/or a BCS bid UCF doesn't. This means we have no need to play this game to set up apart. It is now on the shoulders of UCF to prove to recruits that they are on par with us and the only way they can do that is to play. We benefit by completely taking away any hope they have of "proving" they are on our level. So basically they give us nothing, we give them hope. You didn't really answer the question and contradict yourself. I agree that UCF is not on USF's level because USF is in a BCS conference.  How does playing (or beating) us change that?  How does scheduling the games for the next 20 years give them the ability to prove they are on our level?  How does the series give them hope? Well, it doesn't.  So by not playing the game, you are not taking anything away from UCF. How did I contradict myself? I believe that the only way that UCF will be able to compete with recruits will be to beat us on the field, just because you think that won't happen does not mean I'm contradicting a thing. I think they are the team that is closest to us in battling for recruits and by not giving them assistence in that arena is a benefit to us. Again, just because you don't agree doesn't mean that I'm contradicting myself. Somehow I think most people that are dying for this "rivalry" are really just expecting that we are so far ahead of them that it will just be a game that we'll win and can rub it in their face. Unfortunately I think we are closer than most others do and have a real chance of blowing some of these games, if that happens I hope you all come back here talking up the benefits that a loss to them gave us. I can guarantee you if that happens they'll be trying to use it every way possible to give them leverage. This is your problem ( the bolded statement), most outsiders (ie not fans of either side) view these programs on the same level, if not UCF slightly ahead due to the attention O'Leary got them this offseason.  People really need to wake up and realize in everyones eyes that dont wear green and gold goggles we're pretty much equal.  First thing is I'm not sure what this has to do with building a rivalry. Second, this is exactly why I think it is important not to give them anything to promote themselves over us with. Right now they have nothing, if they beat us on the field they have something. Lose more then once and we give them a trend. I simply don't see that this game is worth playing, nobody cares about the team they just want a rivalry. I keep hearing all these reasons it's natural yet I hear no passion at all about the actual team.

Wow, This isn't a good example AT ALL. Of COURSE there are other teams WE'D rather see at RJS. You don't think Miami(OH) or Cincy would rather have UF or Miami come to their place? Of COURSE. That doesn't mean that game isn't a large rivalry. You don't think Louisville would jump to have ND or Ohio State at Papa Johns over UK ? OF COURSE, that doesn't mean their rivalry with UK isn't big. You don't think Utah would move their season ending game with BYU to get USC to visit them? OF Course I'll concede that USF/UCF isn't a rivalry yet. However, it has the makings to be one: 1) Students and fans live in the same region. Many people know alumni of USF/UCF and work or went to school with them. 2) The game is realistic for both teams at this point. Sure we all know UF/FSU/Miami fans and students the same way, but realistically those schools aren't going to take us as a rival for a very long time 3) We recruit the same group guys. Many of the recruits play against each other, they take visits to schools with each other, they talk to each other, etc. Usually USF and UCF are battling for many of the same high school players and once they are in school they still know and talk to each other. 4) The campuses are 90 miles apart. Self explanatory. 5) Both want to be the "4th" team in the state. Your right, settling for a team just because they are close makes much more sense. I'm sorry but I guess my view on a true rivalry is very different. IMO a rivalry is about WANTING to play...or even better CRAVING to play the other team. Having the feeling that no matter what happened all year long as long as we beat THAT team things are good. I brought up that example to make you think about how badly you care about playing UCF instead of just thinking generically about a team that is 90 miles apart. Yeah, you tick all these "reasons" off about why this is a good "fit" like you can just fabricate something because it makes sense. BUT, do you really give a **** about playing UCF? forget about distance, about the "little two" about an extra 5k seats in the stands do you crave them coming over here over all else? Are they our measuring stick to the success of our program? Are you drooling at the mouth to keep this game over all others? When rivals meet there is this obvious feeling that each side thinks the other has something they need over all else and they won't quit until they get it, what I see in this game is UCF staring at us like that out of their hatred for us reaching a point they haven't and I see us glancing around them with the same look at bigger fish. They want what we have, we want much much more than they have to offer. I just don't get the, they are close and we have this slot called "rivalry" that we need to fill so by default lets make it UCF.

Can you clarify this a bit?? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I don't understand how USF benefits from NOT playing the game. We have the edge right now, due to a stroke of luck we have the BCS tag and we have access (regardless of likelihood) to a national championship and/or a BCS bid UCF doesn't. This means we have no need to play this game to set up apart. It is now on the shoulders of UCF to prove to recruits that they are on par with us and the only way they can do that is to play. We benefit by completely taking away any hope they have of "proving" they are on our level. So basically they give us nothing, we give them hope. You didn't really answer the question and contradict yourself. I agree that UCF is not on USF's level because USF is in a BCS conference.  How does playing (or beating) us change that?  How does scheduling the games for the next 20 years give them the ability to prove they are on our level?  How does the series give them hope? Well, it doesn't.  So by not playing the game, you are not taking anything away from UCF. How did I contradict myself? I believe that the only way that UCF will be able to compete with recruits will be to beat us on the field, just because you think that won't happen does not mean I'm contradicting a thing. I think they are the team that is closest to us in battling for recruits and by not giving them assistence in that arena is a benefit to us. Again, just because you don't agree doesn't mean that I'm contradicting myself. Somehow I think most people that are dying for this "rivalry" are really just expecting that we are so far ahead of them that it will just be a game that we'll win and can rub it in their face. Unfortunately I think we are closer than most others do and have a real chance of blowing some of these games, if that happens I hope you all come back here talking up the benefits that a loss to them gave us. I can guarantee you if that happens they'll be trying to use it every way possible to give them leverage.

Here is my question for you. If you had the chance to bring any team in the country to ray jay who would it be? Would you use that pick for UCF? Would UCF be in the top 5 of that list? Would you prefer them over UF, FSU, UM.....or more realistically would you rather it be them over Louisville, Pitt or WVU even? Not me, I'll take any of those teams along with a huge list of other teams before UCF would even get a thought. If you don't put them on the top of the list how can this really be an intense rivalry? If you do put them up there what is the attraction for you? Bragging rights for the state? Proof of how great a team we are? National exposure? National respect? Is it that they are so full of tradition and talent that being on the same field with them is great? Please help me here as I can't think of anything enticing in this game. Yes it's close but who really cares about distance if you don't care about the team?

Actually, no.  UCF is in a better conference and has a better team. Also, there has been competition between USF and UCF in other sports and in other ways for quite some time... Fifteen years ago there was the same disdain between USF and UCF... that was before USF even started down the path to a football... Do you really think the average fan in Tampa 1)looks at UCF any differently than the other two? and 2)cares at all about any games we've played in soccer or tennis? No I don't see anything about this that will generate a lasting interest in the area. I'm sorry if it bothers a few people that being part of the "little two" is less then exciting, I'm just glad our program is just as uninterested. The average fan in tampa is a bandwagon fan period, end of story, thanks for coming out.  Look at the buc's the stadium wasnt packed TILL THEY STARTED WINNING, same with the lightning.  And yes USF had a good record but in college football winning means competeing for a conference championship every year (and i mean seriously competeing not just being in the middle of the pack) and a national championship every few years.  When this starts happening USF will gain the average fan, because right now they are at a sports bar watching one of the big 3 on saturdays.  Once we start to seriously vie for conference championships every year those fans will see that they can see high quality football live right in their own back yard.  The same way it did with the other two franchises in the city that went from low attendence and a losing record to packed houses and rabid fans.  Basically if you supporting this program now and have been for atleast 5 years you are a die hard, the casual fan will come when we can consistantly field a team to challenge for a conference championship EVERY YEAR.  Your right, and guess what that would be the case with or without UCF on the schedule. So again, this game is not beneficial.

Can you clarify this a bit?? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I don't understand how USF benefits from NOT playing the game. We have the edge right now, due to a stroke of luck we have the BCS tag and we have access (regardless of likelihood) to a national championship and/or a BCS bid UCF doesn't. This means we have no need to play this game to set up apart. It is now on the shoulders of UCF to prove to recruits that they are on par with us and the only way they can do that is to play. We benefit by completely taking away any hope they have of "proving" they are on our level. So basically they give us nothing, we give them hope.

Actually, no.  UCF is in a better conference and has a better team. Also, there has been competition between USF and UCF in other sports and in other ways for quite some time... Fifteen years ago there was the same disdain between USF and UCF... that was before USF even started down the path to a football... Do you really think the average fan in Tampa 1)looks at UCF any differently than the other two? and 2)cares at all about any games we've played in soccer or tennis? No I don't see anything about this that will generate a lasting interest in the area. I'm sorry if it bothers a few people that being part of the "little two" is less then exciting, I'm just glad our program is just as uninterested.

Exactly nodody cares, ie....not a heated rivalry, nothing more than a game between teams near each other. I'm glad you pointed out how this game serves no purpose  It would though if your fans attended your games. LOL, did a UCFer just mention attendence? WOW! stunned.... truth is, nobody gives a **** about you in orlando so what makes you think we'll care about you in Tampa?

If anyone was talking about having a long term 1 and 1 with either of those teams hoping to build a rivalry I'd be completely against that for the exact same reasons. Sounds pretty rediculous even considering that doesn't it? Well the only difference between FAU, FIU and UCF is that UCF is a little closer. That just isn't a reason to create a rivalry.

This actually brings up another issue with the argument on all the incredible revenues this game will bring in. Not only do I think it will be just a modest bump in attendence but it will also only be every other year so the actual benefit to the bottom line will probably be negligable over the 1 and 1 series. One good payday at any BCS school will probably bring in more profit that several go rounds of the little two showdown. BullHeaded, Look at the seats during the 1st two games this year. We were lucky if we brought 20,000 to those games, the actuall attendance for UCF was 40,000 last year. For Louisville, who was ranked 9th in the nation with National Championship hype, we brought 28,000 actual fans...that's a difference of 12,000 people. That's a lot of money. the comparison against McNeese and FIU just don't make sense unless you think I'm talking about scheduling those types of teams...which I'm not. So let's look at louisville and UCF, what were the reported numbers for both? Since we get zilch in concession revenue that is what matters if comparing the financial benefit. Also, last year was the first game and as such was a novelty for those in the area that had some curiousity about which team was better, do you think that interest is strong enough to last the test of time? Keep in mind that UCF is a team that most just don't care about watching and what I'm getting at here is that there is no interest in the team itself, do you think once the novelty is worn down that the average fan in Tampa will be flocking to Ray Jay to see this game? I just don't see it. In the end I don't think we'll see anything more than a modest financial boost from it yet we'll be giving them the opportunity to "prove" they are a better team. This could also open up a door for them to prove to various conferences that they are worthy to join if an opening happens to appear, I'd just assume not give them ANY ammunition whatsoever. Let them try to justify ass whooping to florida and wins against villinova when they want to get ahead. Back to Louisville, I think that is a great rivalry brewing. We've beaten them both times they've come to ray jay and once while they were ranked and hoping for a nationat title run and we got whipped by them when we went to papa johns. Unlike the UCF game THIS is a team that I can see gradually building up to something big over time. As long as they stay a good and ranked team there will be interest in watching them play for the average fan and as long as we can win big games against them like last year it will get nice and heated between us. THAT rivalry is exciting to think about....UCF, well they are close but who the hell cares about the actual game against them...yaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwnnnn. BTW, what was the attendence vs FAMU....pretty darn close to UCF wasn't it? Maybe that would be a natural rivalry as well...I mean they drew well, their band was fun and they are still in state, sounds natural enough to me  :

Exactly nodody cares, ie....not a heated rivalry, nothing more than a game between teams near each other. I'm glad you pointed out how this game serves no purpose

Here's the thing, there are the big 3 and a handfull of other florida teams all fighting to make it the big 4. We caught a break a couple years ago getting the "BCS" tag, right or wrong it gave us a slight edge in recruiting over the rest of the non-big 3 florida teams. IMO it is in our best interest to use that advantage as best as we can without giving any ground to the others in the state. A rivalry can have some minor benefits to BOTH teams but ignoring you benefits only OUR team, if the tables were reversed and the luck of the draw went to UCF I bet we would be having this exact same debate with the roles reversed. I would certainly not claim to be on the level of the big 3 and frankly I think giving you any opportunity to prove that your as good as us on the field is a mistake for our program. It's in our best interest to let the BCS perception take hold and do our own thing to capitalize on that and not bend to what UCF wants.

This actually brings up another issue with the argument on all the incredible revenues this game will bring in. Not only do I think it will be just a modest bump in attendence but it will also only be every other year so the actual benefit to the bottom line will probably be negligable over the 1 and 1 series. One good payday at any BCS school will probably bring in more profit that several go rounds of the little two showdown.

I keep hearing this same argument.  But wouldn't you say that's more of a reflection on the type of "fans" that we have rather than on the quality of the school we are playing?  Rivalry or not, I don't see why a true fan, with the time and money, can't make it to Orlando to support USF. Fans aren't storming the gates to buy tickets for games at Raymond James.  Our fan base, for lack of a better word, sucks.  It's pathetically small compared to both the size of the university and the number of alumni. However, if you replace UCF with another game - it will, by definition be farther away.  Which means EVEN FEWER fans will travel to the game. Finally, I will say that USF fans are not swarming to buy tickets for two reasons: 1) USF is only allocated a certain number of seats; 2) USF failed to market this actively.  The second part is probably because of the view USF administrators seem to have for this game - they don't want it to be successful because it allows them to schedule road games to Buffalo and Ball State. It's pretty obvious that USF fans aren't "flocking" to this game either. Don't blame it on marketing, if it was such a natural bitter rivalry as several of you think than marketing would be unessesary. Fortunately our program has the foresight to shoot bigger than what fenelly termed the "Little Two Showdown" and isn't trying to fabricate a rivalry that doesn't exist. After all the failure your talking about is that USF isn't using marketing to create an interest where one doesn't actually exist because you think it is a good idea and they don't, right? As for point 1, I believe we turned quite a bit of our alloted tickets back didn't we? So it isn't for lack of tickets but lack of interest in the opposing team. I mean c'mon, one hour away and a supposed rivalry and we sell only 3-4k tickets? Accept it, nobody cares about UCF now that the novelty played out last year.

Well, usfgrad84, if those future schedules come out like we think they might, what USF is trying to do is rather puzzling, wouldn't you say?  Ball State??  Buffalo??  Western Kentucky?!?!?!?!?!!!!! Why is it puzzling to increase your presence and  exposure within the area of your own conference?  Bowling Green, KY is a little over an hour's drive to UL and a little over 2 hours hours or so to Cincinnati.  Muncie is about a 2 hours drive to UL and Cinci. Like I said in another post, our exposure in this region doesn't hurt for BB recruiting either.[/ quote] How far is Orlando again to USF?  ;D Grand Slam!! Home Run!!! Wow...never thought a post like that would be SOOOOOO easy! KL I see no recruiting benefit at all for us in this game. The only recruiting affect will be a negative one if we lose with no upside on a win. Yes we'll get maybe a few extra thousand butts in seats but I just don't see that as worth the risk. And as much as you'd like to believe otherwise, UCF as a team is just plain old uninteresting. I have no interest in watching you play and the thought of a rivalry with you brings nothing but a yawn, if we win I won't be celebrating (if we beat Louisvile now THAT will be something) instead it will just be a sigh of relief and a loss will be just to shake my head and wait for all the proponents of this rivalry to accept the concequences. No, this game sucks and I'll be glad as hell to see it fade away.

Buffalo, haven't they been in ESPN's bottom 10 for years? That is surely some good competion UCF spent quite a bit of time there as well so whats the difference? A close crappy team or a far one, same level of competition different location.

This quote says it all and EXACTLY why this game is a bad idea. So yippie, we push to get a rivalry and cement in the minds of all the fans, media and recruits around the nation that we are not and will never be at the level of the big three. Shoot, we're not there yet so I guess we should just give up that goal and be happy settling for second best.  : So playing whipping-boys like Buffalo and Ball State won't further our status? did I say I agree with those games? And are you saying that if we don't schedule UCF then our schedule will be loaded with those teams instead? Why don't you point to the games that are actually scheduled in the future like KU, UNC, Indiana, Mich St, Auburn, UF, Miami etc.... Instead of games that the trib speculated on? Maybe the UCF game will be preventing games with  more of those teams. From what I can see we are really starting to get some interesting teams on our schedule and none of them come with the baggage that a UCF game will have. And frankly I'd lump UCF in the same class of Buffalo (I believe UCF got crushed by Buffalo did they not?) and Ball St, they are all mid major teams that nobody outside of their particular area (maybe not even in the area) give a **** about. So aside from being close by exactly what is the appeal and how do you distinguish them from the other teams you mentioned?

This quote says it all and EXACTLY why this game is a bad idea. So yippie, we push to get a rivalry and cement in the minds of all the fans, media and recruits around the nation that we are not and will never be at the level of the big three. Shoot, we're not there yet so I guess we should just give up that goal and be happy settling for second best.  :

Eric, for those of us taking the bus over to orlando when and where is it leaving from?

FIUs defense is not better than UCFs, your sadly mistaken. Our last 3 games have been against CUSA champs, WAC champs, and likely SEC champs. FIU has played who??? HUH? Last year means nothing. this year you played villanova (exactly which champ were they?) and got crushed by florida. So which game are you using as the comparison? The nobody you played or the game that your D might as well have stayed home for?

Big rivalry smazz  ;D  ...are you flying into town to join the other 1900+ Bulls fans at the Citrus Bowl?  That is huge man...Huge!  Please, this is hardly a rivlary...you've been overmarketed my friend. Well when you add in the additional 1250 students, this is the second largest travelling contingent in USF history.  This is the LARGEST travelling contingent to a regular season away game in USF'S HISTORY.  The small number doesn't represent USF fans' lack of interest.  It represents USF's lack of fans. So what your saying is that the sale of approximately 3-4k tickets for a game only an hour away (1200 of which were practically free) is proof that we want this rivalry? Those are some pretty low standards you have on fan interest

I don't think Leavitt is always right...in fact I have been critical over many decisions. On THIS I think he is absolutely right however. If everyone aside from the few you mentioned felt this was so into this rivalry I doubt we'd be sending back over half of the mere 5,000 tix we were alloted.

35k for Indiana? You do know they haven't been to a bowl game in 16 years right? They average about 27,000-30,000 for home games. I just don't see it. I mean we brought in 33,000 for a game against a top 10 opponent, you can't get much more hype than that! Michigan State might draw a crowd, but I didn't bring them up for that reason and the fact that we don't play them for 7 years. UCF had 40,000 legitimate fans in seats. It's hard to deny that at this point. Bullhead, UF is a top 10 team that pulls in the best of the best athletes, everyone knew they would smoke UCF... If your reasoning is correct, why isn't Colorado being asked to be kicked out of the BCS, they have split their last 8 games against Colorado State. Nobody is talking about them settling at that level. Colorado lost to Fresno State and still won the Big 12 in 2001, they were a couple % points out of the BCS title game (Nebraska, another Big 12 team, went to the title game) The thing is, we aren't doing fantastic in attendance right now, we don't have the bundles of money that the big BCS schools have, and we have a game here that is a draw. If we win 4 straight years then I'd say UCF had it's chance, time to move on. If we get a Miami series, it would only add to that point. However, before USF can move completelt to the next level they will need more fan support, this game at least garners some of it. There are alot of transplants down here from the MidWest so yes I believe (bowl or no bowl) that we would draw a decent crowd. You don't really think that any of those game would draw as poorly as McNeese do you? Also, IMO, it all boils down to a battle in the marketing department NOT on the field with UCF. We have a slight edge from our conference affiliation and I don't think it would be wise to piss it away by giving them any acknowledgement at all. If we were at the point of UF that we could confidently believe that (as smazza mentioned) beat up on them year by year than it would be different but realistically I don't think we're there yet. If all we care about it money, fine take a payday game somewhere that a loss won't have any longer reaching ramifications. Personally I think that our scheduling without UCF is going fine, it may not be immediate but we're consistently improving and crowds are gradually increasing......two years ago the McNeese game would have probably drawn 15k instead of 25k (or whatever it was this year) and the students would have been completely absent. Anyway, at this point the game is there so there is no choice and unfortunately is is a must win for us and for the good of our program we better find a way to do just that.

Maybe a good middle ground (in the future) would be to cap ticket sales for a few hours and once the time is up groups could come in and buy as many of the remaining tickets that they want. Would allow everyone interested a shot at a ticket and still allow for "mop up duty" from the larger groups to insure all tickets sell.