Rating the state's RB's

[Guest S.  Bien]

**** Rice I'm starting to like you.  I am definitely in the presence of someone that has a keen eye.  I know football but you're throwing around some serious names and great examples.

I concur almost completely.  Andre Hall has the skills to be a great college RB because in college you don't always have to be the fastest and many of Hall's intangibles- vision, balance, quickness- allow him to excel in college.  Unfortunately in the NFL the average LB runs in the low 4.5's and some in the 4.4's and weigh in the 240+ range.  You can't hide from that, and Hall doesn't have the size where his balance and toughness will win many of those battles.  Unless Hall can increase his speed, and add a few pounds his weakness will be exposed at the combines.

Until then, we shouldn't worry because as far as the college game goes, and the type of talent Hall will face on defense in the Big East, he will excel.  He still has at least 11 games, hopefully one more, to make his mark on this team and our future.  He's good enough to be a great college back if the system and players around him produce.

[Guest USFPDIDDYguest]

I don't know...Emmit Smith ran what, a 4.6?  There are lots of statistics we don't know about Hall yet.

But I will agree with all of you that the NFL scouts will next combine.

His shuttle times etc. and agility will be extremely important.  So will his hands.  How is he with fumbles?  Vert?  Does he have that special something that allows him to account for multiple attackers at the same time in the NFL?  Even with 4.4 speed you can't catch a 4.6 guy who already ran by you if you still have to turn around.

It is a good point that his max speed will be a hindrance...I just wonder if his agility and exceptional vision might make up for it to an extent.  If he trains hard enough he could put on 10 pounds and go up to 215 without losing speed I'd expect.  A 4.5 speed back at 215 with great vision will definitely get some good NFL looks.  The NFL will always take players if they perform well in games...so we'll just have to see.

Hall has a lot to prove but he seems to be a smart guy...he stayed away from the draft when it was loaded with RB's, and I hope he uses this time to develop himself.  I'm looking forward to seeing him more this season.

[Guest S.  Bien]

True Diddy.  There's still more time to determine where Hall fits in the NFL scheme and he may prove to be that special type of back like Emmett Smith who was always doubted at every level but somehow managed to excel.   Hall does have a great work ethic, and I have to admit few thought he would excel in JC, all he did was excel at two different JC's each with better comp then the one before.  He came to USF, and excelled immediately, maybe he's just that type of guy that steps it up when the comp gets tougher.

We'll worry about that in the spring.  In the mean time I just want him to have another great year for himself and USF.

[Guest Vanilla Rice]

Again, recruiting and scouting is like what Forest Gump says, "it's like a box of chocolates as you never know what you're going to get.  Take for instance Terrell Davis.  He was like a sixth round pick or something like that and he ended up being one of the best RB's in Bronco's history.  There are other examples like Kurt Warner who was never drafted and ended up being a Super Bowl MVP.  Then there are the first round busts like Blair Thomas and every other running back to come out of Penn State.  BUT.....there's a reason why NFL scouts get paid for what they do.  It's their job to determine who is good and who isn't.  And how do they do that?  They measure the intangibles.  They look at productivity in college but they also look at height, weight, etc.  What I hate hearing is, "well he may be small but he has a lot of heart."  The thing is, I can also find a guy who is 6-2, 240 who runs a 4.4 who also has a lot of heart too.  But being a good college player does not translate to being a good pro player or prospect.  Take Greg Walls for instance and Chris Daley.  They were more productive their senior years than Shurron Pierson but it is Shurron that gets drafted.  Why?  Because Shurron had the intangibles (4.4 speed, vertical jump out of the roof, etc.).  With that in mind, I'm not trying to knock Andre, I'm just looking at things from an NFL evaluators perspective.  Andre is VERY productive.  He has good vision as I like the way he sometimes can see things collapse before they do and he is a little shifty at times.  He also hits the hole fast.....but.  At his size, he has to have breakaway speed in order to be drafted higher than the fourth round.  Remember, RB's in the NFL are a dime a dozen.  I've seen first team All-Americans not get drafted til the mid rounds.  Remember that MLB from So. Miss a few years ago?  Rod Davis I think his name was.  That guy was a beast.  He was a first team All American but wasn't drafted til the fourth round.  Andre has some other nice intangibles like he is a true baller.  He fights for extra yardage (it costs him the ball at times but I like the competitiveness).  But Andre is probably a 4.6 runner.  At 205 pounds, he has to be a 4.4 runner.  Put it this way.  Andre is about the size of Reggie Bush at USC.  But we all know Andre is not Reggie Bush.  But also, Reggie Bush isn't an every down back and in the NFL he probably won't be an every down back.  His skill is in the return game and it will probably make Reggie a first round pick.  Reggie is a 4.4 guy.  But Reggie isn't an every down back (LenDale White gets most of the carries).  But Reggie has what is called "big play making ability," meaning he is a threat who can take it to the house every down.  I could be wrong of course.  Marshall Faulk is about the size of Reggie Bush and Andre hall and Marshall was an every down back.....but then again, how many Marshall Faulk's come out every year?  Marshall is what is known as a once in a lifetime back.  Meaning he is a future hall of famer.  andre should probably make first team or second team All Big East.  Since every one is keying in on him though, he probably may not get the yards he got last year, but should probably crack the 1,000 yard mark because he is the only offensive threat so he should get the ball a lot.  But due to his size, and lack of Reggie Bush type speed, you are probably looking at a fourth rounder at the highest.  If he would have came out as a junior he probably would not have even been drafted due to the amount of RB's that were available last year.  

[Guest Vanilla Rice]

Typically before the draft, the dedicated individuals will work out hard and gain some weight if they need it.  Take J.R. Reed for instance.  He was told he was probably going to have to play corner because he wasn't that big.  He bulked up about 15 pounds for pro timing day and to play safety, his natural position.  About Emmit Smith.  Yes, Emmitt did only run a 4.6.  Emmit also though still outweighs Andre by about 10 pounds.  I don't know if any of you have ever seen Emmitt, but Emmitt is thick in the legs.  He is a powerful runner when one might not think he is due to his lack of height.  A guy who had similar size and was a powerful runner was Florida's Ernest Graham.  The size is deceiving because they are short, but when they have those thick legs, it makes them a stronger runner.  But again, Andre is about the same height as Emmitt Smith but Emmitt still outweighed Andre by about ten pounds coming out of college.  Also, Emmitt Smith did his damage against SEC defenses.  And I'm sorry....but there is a HUGE difference between SEC defenses and Conference USA defenses.  To say otherwise, you are smokin something real good....or real bad.  

[Guest Vanilla Rice]

Oh besides Andre and Tim, I forgot one other player who has a shot at getting drafted and it's due to intangibles (meaning size, strength) and that is Frank Davis.  FRank is somewhat of an inomalie and he is still learning the game.  For the NFL he is probably best suited for offensive guard as he has problems with speed rushers off the edge.  Plus he has the ideal size for guard and is a mauler.  he's about 6-4 and 320 or 330.  Strong as an ox.  That's something the NFL can play with.  Maybe take a late round draft pick on him or pick him up as a free agent and send him to NFL Europe.  Again, he has only played football for four years.  He is still learning.  But like Tim Jones, he has the NFL intangibles (size, strength).  And NO, Tim won't be looked at as a DT in the NFL.  Too small.  He's about 275-280 range.  Perfect size for DE.  If any of you have ever seen him practice or play you can see why he is suited for DE at the next level.  He has a nice spin and is strong and fast for his size.  We're talking about a guy who used to be the starting tight end so you figure he has some athletic skill.  If I had to say anyone gets drafted it's Andre, Tim and Frank with Johnnie and Terrance maybe being free agents.  Terrance would have to switch to LB though.  

[Guest Vanilla Rice]

Oh forgot about Beef.  He would probably be a good free agent pick up.

[KeysBull]

Who is beef?

[Guest Vanilla Rice]

Beef is starting offensive guard Chris Carothers.   He will really have to have an outstanding senior year though to even get a free agent shot.  Last year Sarosi didn't even get a free agent shot although Levi did.  Beef is quit a ways off from Levi though.  He has a chance considering he's been a four year starter.  But he will really have to be good this year to get a free agent shot.  I doubt he will get drafted.  

[Guest usfpdiddyguest]

Typically before the draft, the dedicated individuals will work out hard and gain some weight if they need it.  Take J.R. Reed for instance.  He was told he was probably going to have to play corner because he wasn't that big.  He bulked up about 15 pounds for pro timing day and to play safety, his natural position.  About Emmit Smith.  Yes, Emmitt did only run a 4.6.  Emmit also though still outweighs Andre by about 10 pounds.  I don't know if any of you have ever seen Emmitt, but Emmitt is thick in the legs.  He is a powerful runner when one might not think he is due to his lack of height.  A guy who had similar size and was a powerful runner was Florida's Ernest Graham.  The size is deceiving because they are short, but when they have those thick legs, it makes them a stronger runner.  But again, Andre is about the same height as Emmitt Smith but Emmitt still outweighed Andre by about ten pounds coming out of college.  Also, Emmitt Smith did his damage against SEC defenses.  And I'm sorry....but there is a HUGE difference between SEC defenses and Conference USA defenses.  To say otherwise, you are smokin something real good....or real bad.  

Well, Andre will get his chance, and maybe he'll even bulk up a bit.  Either way, the scouts aren't done with him yet, and neither is college for that matter.  I'm not saying he'll even go as high as 4th round...but its tough to rule out 2nd or 3rd for absolute sure.  I don't think we've found his peak yet.  The nfl assuredly will, which is why they have scouts.  You've already pointed that out though.

You mentioned earnest, which is the reason I didnt just leave your argument at that.  The guy played at my high school, though hes a bit older than me.  I used to play with his younger brother more (kid was just as good as earnest, but a waste of talent thanks to some bad habits, so he didnt develop).

Brandon Graham was tough to bring down but doable with good form/position.  I'm not a big guy myself ( 6'0, 200 at the moment after a diet) so earnest was unruly as a freshman for me (I did not develop physically fast enough to play college, if i were at this size/str/weight as a freshman, i coulda done some d1-aa).

The few times they had us practicing with the varsity at all that season, I got a little piece of just how annoying to bring down graham was.  His high school stats included a squat of over 600 and a power clean of 315.  He benched 335.  Like you said, good lower body strength, he was short so guys would chop his legs now and then in hopes he'd trip.  He's gotten stronger since then, probably why he's in the nfl.  I should mention that he broke our leg press machines...all reasons for those thick legs you mentioned.

If you get your arm stuck in a guys shoulder pads, you can trip a good back up after he drags you a few yards.  Thats what I learned as a high school freshman going up against a back nearly ready to play college.  You can also go right into the cutback lane and nail them before they get any momentum, but i wasn't quick enough reacting to do that until long after graham was gone (not that i really wanted to get stiff armed or mowed down constantly anyhow)

Graham was a good guy though, and its good to see a mariner kid make it all the way to the pros, alongside spires even!