Bullish

As for the passing of the CIT, it actually failed the first time it was presented to vote. The stadium and some other projects were added and it passed.

Something else to consider, the first attempt would have passed if all the employees of Hillsborough County Schools would have voted for it. Talk about being lethargic, pay raises for the HCS were tied to the original CIT and they still did not vote. If the first vote would have passed then the stadium would have been on a ballot by itself.

The problem I have with that statement is - why is there not enough time to work with Denson if he is talented then someone should be working with him. Shift the resources from PJ and spend the time with the young QB's that might have the ability to get USF to the next level. The simpler answer is to recruit better QB's that are not always projects.

Either way, USF needs to figure out how to get better play out of the QB position.

The reason I started this conversation was to see why the optimists were so optimistic and the pessimists so pessimistic. I appreciate those who have shared their opinion and would hope for others to do so (less of course JG, because he has only been a distraction). I want to be optimistic and hope that I am proven to be wrong because USF went undefeated. Not realistic but you get the point.

QB position - While speaking with friends in the athletic department, I have heard JL and staff heavily favor C Hill for the starting QB. Lots of posters are suggesting Grothe in their responses but early signs are pointing to Hill.

Sorry a little late on the draw regarding the stadiums....

Complacency and no budget come to mind however the baseball stadium will be addressed in the future. The last I heard, the proposal will include a field for the softball squad as well.  Rumor has it, the last round of long range planning even included a proposed Football stadium.  

Thanks SCBulls!!!

Yes, JG I am sensitive to people attacking other people personally. See your statement regarding idiot and moron was not needed in your response. You have no idea of who I am or what I do, yet you choose to attack rather then debate. That is childish and puts people on the defensive maybe that was your intent and I bit.

As for UCF's record, I was mistaken but I did not take the time to look up their record either, my fault. BTW, you do not have to be rich to donate money and or time to USF. JL has done a lot while playing schedules just like UCF's, what has he done since the schedule has gotten harder, 2004 USF finished 116 in the Sagarin ratings and this year he finished 56th. Maybe that is acceptable to you but I see that as a FAILURE.

Copy of the 2004 ratings:

111  Lehigh               AA =  61.48    9   3   49.92( 180)    0   0  |    0   0  |   59.58  126 |   62.70  107

112  Vanderbilt           A  =  61.34    2   9   70.71(  62)    0   0  |    0   4  |   56.42  135 |   65.72   95

113  Houston              A  =  61.33    3   8   71.30(  58)    0   3  |    0   3  |   63.52  102 |   58.47  119

114  Mississippi State    A  =  61.30    3   8   70.07(  70)    0   1  |    1   2  |   60.70  120 |   61.19  110

115  Temple               A  =  61.15    2   9   70.46(  64)    0   0  |    0   3  |   62.28  110 |   59.31  117

116  South Florida        A  =  60.87    4   7   67.08(  90)    0   1  |    0   1  |   64.57   95 |   56.56  132

117  Tulane               A  =  60.61    5   6   65.16( 102)    0   1  |    0   1  |   66.15   90 |   54.54  144

118  Nevada               A  =  60.49    5   7   64.33( 105)    0   1  |    0   2  |   62.35  109 |   57.93  124

119  Middle Tennessee     A  =  60.46    5   6   62.69( 114)    0   0  |    0   1  |   64.07   97 |   56.20  135

120  Western Kentucky     AA =  60.44    9   3   55.07( 157)    0   0  |    0   0  |   63.01  107 |   57.21  129

Now I am done with the verbal sparring.

Let me spell out my point again to you: I DO NOT WANT USF TO BE COMPARED TO UCF, I WANT THEM TO BE COMPARED TO UF, FSU or MIAMI. You and others choose to compare them to UCF, closer to a mid major school then a top 25 school, not what I see as a great endosement for USF.  This is a difference of opinion and expectations, I respect the view of those like yourself that accepts the crawl before you can walk philosophy. I am impatient and I accept that as well. I want the best for USF just like you do, I am just not willing to view their success based on beating the UCF's, FAMU's, and Cincinatti's of the world. I look at the wins against LVILLE and Rutgers and the chances that got away against PSU and Miami as the path to success. Lets beat some ranked opponents like LVILLE and Rutgers on a consistent basis before we say USF has become a successful program.

I have seen a great divide among the optimists and pessimists on this board and in this thread we will make the assumption that because someone is a pessimist does not mean they do not want to see USF succeed.

With that being said, post your reasons for choosing to see the glass half full or half empty.

Caveat - please leave the personal criticisms out of the posts because they only muddie the thread and prove nothing in the end.

Here are mine: Overall Pessimist

1. QB - until we bring in a QB that can be a field general, we do not have enough talent to make up for that position

2. OC - even optimists see this as a big problem

3. Offensive Coaching philosophy - not sure how much the OC has to do with this or the QB but USF lives and dies by gadget based football. They struggle with playing smash mouth run based football, can not run the west coast possesion style, and do not have a pro style game with a pocket passer.

4. Hall's departure - Replacing their best offensive player remains to be seen

5. Penalties - USF takes too many penalties for a team that does not have a potent offense to make up for it

6. Big East - every school in the BE that USF needs to pass either had a better recruiting class or returns many of their top players

7. Coaching staff - I still have not seen enough development from the current players to determine if the coaching staff can lead this team to the next level. I have seen kids that were decently recruited (Peyton, Chambers, Hill, etc) move backwards sine coming to USF.

This topic has been moved to [link=http://www.thebullspen.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=news;action=display;num=1139169089;start=0]South Florida Bulls Athletics Main Board[/link] by Velcro.

JG you are an egotistical a$$ that would rather talk about the meaningless past then the future of the programs. I am completely a USF fan who probably does and donates more for the athletic program at USF in a year then you have in your life. Then again I do not know you so maybe my remarks are off topic just like your dribble. Grow up and have a conversation about looking up rather then back - the topic of my original response. UCF should be a team that USF beats without question, it should not be a team we measure our success off of. Grow up and come back with how my original post was so wrong. USF had a disappointing recruiting class compared to UCF (USF has higher expectations and should have finished higher then 59 / 61), UCF coaches are better top to bottom then USF (George and company are a better staff when viewed by anyone other then USF fans), UCF improved while USF moved backwards at the end of the season (USF lost to 5 out of 8 while UCF won 8 in a row and scored 30+ and barely lost their bowl game). Again, my expectations maybe higher then yours when it comes to how successful USF is. UCF is not the team I want USF to be measured against, I prefer them to be the Gators' La Tech game instead of the Gators' Georgia game. I will end by suggesting that you offer at least a semi adult response to posts in the future.

Can either one of those QB's even be mentioned in the same breath as USF?

Joe, recruiting they had the 43rd ranked class in 2004 but in the final standings for records at the end of the season they finished near the bottom of the rankings 110 / 112 or something like that. Sorry for being vague, I was looking more at the coorelation between recruiting and lack of success for USF.

Here is another scary thought, USF has actually gone backwards in recruiting rankings: 2004 - 43rd, 2005 - 50th, and 2006 - 59 / 61st not a trend that gives me a lot of confidence in the current coaching staff.

How sad is this, we can not even poke fun at UCF. IMO, USF's recruiting class is a bigger disappointment then UCF, face it USF fans UCF has a pretty comparable recruiting class and no matter how many sticks and stones you throw it will remain that way, especially if Stirrups can not make the grade. USF had higher expectations then UCF going into recruiting season and failed to live up to them.

BigTipp, your response siting score is not only childish but typical from what I have seen posted from USF fans. We should dominate UCF and be looking at UF, FSU and Miami for verbal sparring. USF was selected for the BE based on the anticipation of USF growing into a dominant recruiting force that can compete for titles with the rest of the successful schools in Florida. Timeline is still to be determined but the expectations are high for USF and the BE is betting on the football team to carry the torch in about 5 years. Lets make an effort to look at the teams ahead of USF in the standings for viewing how successful they are instead of the teams (eg - UCF) behind them in the standings to justify their success. I will also suggest a word of caution when competing with UCF, they are set up much better to be successful in the near time then USF. When looking at the two schools: UCF has a better coaching staff, came on much better at the end of the season, approved plans to build a campus stadium and play a better brand of football then USF. They worry me for those reasons. As another point of reference, USF better not lose to them this coming year or UCF will begin to distance themselves from USF forcing USF fans to compte with FAU and FIU for bragging rites.  

ROTB, why use rankings and stars to prove your point against UCF Knight. I have read many threads and postings (not sure what stance you have taken in other threads) defaming the system that you are using to prove your point. USF fans can not have it both ways, either we suck it up and accept the stars / rating system (59 / 61 ranking USF received) and use it against the UCF's (71 ranking) of the world or we turn our backs to them and accept the argument that maybe UCF did as well as USF based on recruiting talented but overlooked kids. With that said, I guess USF's class can outperform UF's and USC's as well since the rating sites do not know what they are talking about.

REcruiting rankings

wow does that help our record

Apparently it does, USF finished 2005's recruiting with a 50th ranking and finished 56th in the standings this year. Some people on this board see that as an improvement however after the 2004 final standings it would have been very hard for USF to go backwards in the standings because they were ranked around 110 or so.

Hopefully, next year USF can truely improve and finish in the top 40's and in 3 years make the top 25 both in final standings and recruiting because there is a coorelation between the 2. IMO, anything less should be considered a failure by everyone that follows USF.

OK, I went back and looked at the record 6-5 ranked 56th in the country -1 win was against FAMU, 2 wins were against teams with a combined 5-17 record, 1 win against UCF (at the time it was in a 14 (or so) game winless streak, 1 respectable win (Rutgers) and 1 upset (Lville). Yes, the schedule was more difficult and they did make a Bowl game.

My concern is not the games they won (remember 4 wins were against very sub par opponents) it is the pattern they follow when they lose games that shows me there was very little improvement. If you look beyond the record you will see is the same mistakes occur year after year: bad offensive play calling, mental lapses by the coaches and the players, multiple turnovers per game, terrible QB play and poor route running and pass catching by the WR's. The mistakes this team continues to make do not allow them to win games they can, see Penn State, Miami, and UCONN, see I can be optimistic as well bullieving the Bulls could have beaten Miami and PSU. They never really had a chance against Pitt or WVU so I will leave them out.

I would only like to point out one more thing, the coorelation between how USF recruited last year and their record this year, finished 50th in recruiting and 56th in final rankings however for the optimists on the board the 56 final year end ranking is much better then last years.

There are a lot of coolaid drinking, rose colored glasses wearing people that participate in this forum. Just a thought, JL is also concerned about rankings because he offered Stirrups a scholarship to keep the ratings in the 50's eventhough it has been reported for months he will not qualify.

How can people say USF did well in this recruiting class? Did they recruit needed positions - YES, did they get the best available talent for their operating budget and recruiting accumen, YES, however they were out recruited by 60 other schools and that sucks. I would also venture a guess the people who rate the High School kids (rivals, scout, lemming) are better judges of talent then 99% of the fans who post on all boards.

This program is young and has had a meteoric rise through conferences and that is great. I also believe JL is a classy guy with a lot of energy and has USF's best interest at heart but we have to get much better in recruiting if we are going to truly compete for a BE championship. USF really was not that close last year eventhough some of you believe they were.

Recruiting still does not make sense to me because some schools can recruit 2 and 3 stars for the same skill positions. Take Miami for ex, they recruited 3 RB's that were 3-5 stars in the same year, my question is why would JJ and Robinson want to go to the same school in the same recruiting class.  Same as last yr, X Lee picks FSU eventhough they were returning a Soph to start and had recruited another Blue Chip QB High Schooler. Makes no sense other then the idea of playing for FSU or Miami is better then the reality of actually playing for USF.

I know it takes time and I should have more patience but I only want the best for USF like most of you who post on this board.

The chance of playing WVU  for a chance to play in the BCS was lost because of the COACHES.

Now JL has been a good coach amongst very difficult odds by starting this program from scratch but the program has gone sideways the last 3 years. With that said, I think the program and JL can be pushed forward but hard decisions need to be made about the offensive assistants and the play calling.

I am not a fan of PJ at all because he lacks touch, can not make decisions, can not read defs, throws 10 yard slants and 20 yard outs at the same velocity and has no depth perception. He out right sucks as a passing QB and if he was the best USF had they should have run the option and limited his passes just like Nebraska did.

PJ could have TO, Rice and Irvin in 3 receiver sets and he still would have a passer rating hoovering around 50%. Lets hope the next QB is closer to Blackwell then PJ because Blackwell has been the ony respectable QB USF has put on the field.

Bil not ranked in the top 10 is far different then not rated in the top 50.

I  have to ask another question, what recruit has gotten better since coming to USF? I can name plenty of players that have not lived up to expectations (just take a look at all the complaints about the WR's and QB's). It is all about coaching and I am not seeing it with the current staff.

I know they are only rankings and there can be plenty of surprises in USF's class but lets be realistic, everyone is watching Rivals to see where USF finishes.

They better do well tomorrow because they are going to lose their only 4 star recruit which will move USF further down, possibly into the 60's. Stirrups is purely window dressing and the only reason he still shows on our list, guess the ranking means something to JL. How about this for a perfect storm tomorrow - UCF signs a couple of surprises and JL swings and misses, USF gets beat by UCF. I would hate to see that because USF has so much more potential (big east and all) but I personally believe if the 2 schools switched staffs USF would be in the top 40.

I know everyone is trying to be positive about our recruiting class but we also have to be realistic and every college recruiting class is judged based on the rating services and right now USF is getting killed. Anything less then top 50 should be considered a failure - IMHO. Filling holes should be a priority but when do we move ahead of the train coming towards us and actually recruit depth. Maybe I am more impatient then some on this board but I think we should be recruiting at least in the top 40 every year.

You can talk about dropped passes all you want but the WR's did not have many opps to succeed. USF had 1 game where they completed over 20 passes but they also had multiple games where they ATTEMPTED less then 20 passes. Not sure how many were drops but again not many chances to make up for the 1 or 2 drops they may have had thus magnifying the drops. The passing stats are terrible no matter how you look at them and brings question marks greatly beyond the WR's hands. Chambers and JP were highy recruited and should be used more often, Hill looks good, and some of the new recruits look good on paper but none of it will matter if the QB play and OC play calling does not get 100% better.

I know most on this board like to pick on SMAZZA but I think a lot of his rants are dead on regarding the QB and OC (they  are pretty easy targets) but as fans we should start expecting more from this team. The timeline for success has to be condensed now that we are in a BCS conference and that is why the coaching staff becomes more important then ever. IMO there continues to be reservations about how good a staff we have in place.

How about just teaching the QB to throw the ball within their reach.

I have seen lots of debates about the catcing ability of the WR's but I think we have as good a set of WR's as many of the top programs. The only issue I can see other then the playcalling is the ability for a QB to provide a catchable ball. Many WR's have been open and the QB over/under threw them all year. The few drops get magnified because of the very few chances they have to catch the ball. I have seen many drops by the top WR's across the country but they get 6-8 chances a game to make up for the drops. USF WR's get 2-3 (1 will be a bad throw, so really 1-2) and that is why they look as bad as they do at times.

OFF THE USF TOPIC

Joe, now it is you that is using flawed logic. Miami has won 5 Nat'l Championships (83, 87, 89, 91 and 2001), please save the easy schedule bullcrap, this is just an excuse by teams that have not won as many. Miami has also played in at least 3 other championship games (possible more, do not want to do the research) which they lost. FYI, everyone was saying the Longhorns were overated this year because they had an EASY schedule, should we pull their title. I for one do not buy the easy schedule excuses. Take a look back in history, UF refused to schedule Miami until a couple of years ago and look at the drubbing they received then, personally I wish UF would have played Miami every year. Could Miami have tried harder to schedule some more difficult teams maybe but I am not sure many schools would have been willing to play Miami during that run. As for your point about probation, just think how much more of a dynasty they would have been if not for a few loose cannons. All because you do not get caught does not mean you weren't cheating. Check the record books, I believe I am corrct about the championship years.  Again, not the point of this thread but I wish everyone would stop being an FSU / UF apologists.

The best school in the state is the team with the most titles: the winner is MIAMI with 5. The runner ups - FSU 2, UF 1, and USF 0. Let me try a different way Miami 5, the rest of the state 3, the winner again by a KO MIAMI.

Now if everyone would like, we can start another thread for USF fans to determine which school other then USF is the best in the state. I do not get all the love for FSU / UF in a board dedicated to the BULLS.

Thanks for those who replied.

In reply to Windbane and USFMikeB:

As for big 1 vs big 3 (not the point of the thread) but I will justify with my reasoning. Before attending USF, I followed Miami and Penn State since 1980 however now they do not matter nearly as much because I stand and cheer for USF. IMO, success is viewed by championships and championship only. UF and FSU win their bowl games but rarely play for the championship whereas Miami does not play well other then when playing for the championship. I would take Miami's bowl success in the big games and could care less if they win their other meaningless bowl games. I look at FSU and UF as being the tallest midget or the prettiest ugly girl, lots of bragging but not a lot of substance. Many fans of FSU or UF that attend USF will only begin to cheer for USF when they start winning (the topic of the thread). Just remember, if the team does not win the championship the view is always the same.

After providing my reasoning, I believe Miami has won more championships then FSU and UF combined.

Now back to the topic, how does USF get better and pass the other schools in the Big East as well as the other schools in Florida.

Let me start off by saying I have been a long time reader but have not had the time to post in the past. I had some time today and I have some questions that it appears some of the posters may have an inside track on providing answers as opposed to me guessing what the answers might be. I also have nothing to compare USF's ahtletic Dept to but from my experiences in dealing with them it seems as though there is a constant struggle to grow due to lack of funding. They run very tight on the amount of personel they hire and have very little budget to wine and dine like the big boys thus struggling to create relationships with the business community.

Caveat - my questions about ranking and players are not to start a debate about the star rankings and which service is best. Instead I woud like to focus more about USF.

1a. Why does USF hoover closer to the middle of recruiting classes for the Big East, this should be apriority before USF can worry about out recruiting the big 3 recruiters of Florida.

1B. Is there a relationship between the football budget and recruiting class? From what I have read and seen USF has one of the lowest Athletic budgets in the Big East and I have to believe there is a relationship but I will await responses from some of you more in the know.

2. Is the Offensive Coordinator / lack of ability to play offense hurting recruiting skill players? I am not a big fan of the gadget offense USF runs and I am not sure how much JL is to blame for the play calling but if I were a WR I would have to put USF very low on the list of schools I would consider.

3. Why has USF only recruited athletes that play QB, instead of QB's that are athletes? I guess a follow up question would be why would a traditional big armed QB even consider USF with the offense that is run here.

4. What is the budget for the assistant coahes and is that the reason why USF refuses to upgrade the OC or is it JL really believes in the OC? I have no idea but would assume that the assistant coaches at USF rank around the lowest in the nation with regards to pay, hell I bet some High school coaches make more money.

Sorry for the long post but I want to become better informed and it does appears that some posters have more info available to them than I have access to. I am looking forward to the day when USF shows up in the rankings and can compete against the big 1 (Miami) and lesser 2 (they know who they are) of the state. GO BULLS!