BullShirt

And from today until they either say NO or finishing construction it will be a distraction. This program just doesn't need any distractions right now in my opinion.

If you were referring to USFRaider then I apologize. This thread has been going on for a few days and I'm typing while watching the tourney. And while I did take a few hits I've been tested and as of now no evidence of any issues or preliminary warning signs. But thank you for your concern. And no, I'm not angry. I'm very happy. I know how Blessed and lucky I am.

Again, we're pretty much in agreement. You said "USF MUST win, first and foremost...". I just think the winning needs to happen before the "building".

And there it is "When USF was winning, is when they should have invested in the football program (IPF,OCS). That's what I've been getting at from the beginning. They need to focus on winning NOW, stadium later. The comments from people saying they want BOTH right now give the impression they think they are at a buffet and they can just get whatever they want. But I do keep pointing out that IN MY OPINION a winning program at Ray Jay could be FUN, energetic, well attended, a recuiting plus, etc. I have not put this out there before but I have asked some of the guys from my playing days their opinions of being recruited in high school and potentially playing in a pro stadium when they were in college. I have not put this out before because the question was obviously asked after their playing days were over but a huge number of them said playing in a pro stadium would be a neutral or POSITIVE factor. Only a few said not playing on campus was a negative for them. And all of my college contacts are Big 10 while my pro contacts are lots or schools and lots of conferences big and small. Again, for what it's worth.

Hope you're not referring to me. If you so your reading comprehension skills need some attention (just like your ego). I've never been to Vegas, I don't gamble, I have not mentioned the Raiders even ONCE but I did play at the Raiders more than once so there is that. Was that brief enough and "dumbed down" enough for you?

I don't think he was including me in that comment.

Sorry I didn't respond sooner. We stopped by Publix to pick up some subs and beer and I got distracted by a couple of the girls and their uniforms . I'll try to be more timely next time.

Cubanbull, You said "the only ways to grow them, is by getting students involved AND winning...". I think we probably agree on almost everything that has been debated here. I just think WINNING is more important and will lead to more student involvement at Ray Jay or an OCS. I just don't have the confidence in the AD and the "powers that be" to think they can do both simultaneously. Personally, I think "a shiny new OCS" is somewhat to get fans, alumni, etc. to focus less on the dismal performance of the FB and MBB teams right now. But I will admit that I really do think if USF was winning BIG and filling RayJay that the place would be full and rockin' and fun and energetic and..... I'll also believe that a WINNING program that is pretty much the only one playing in an NFL Super Bowl caliber stadium could actually be a recruiting plus. Furthermore, if going to games was FUN (and no one likes losing) students would go. They use to go to MBB games at the Sundome (I know because I was there too) but pretty much not anymore. There's been a LOT of games when there were more members of the BAND at a game than students. I'm not totally against an OCS. I just think a 100% total focus on winning is what's needed right now. An OCS is a distraction that a bottom feeder doesn't need at this time. If they start winning that would be the time to consider whether an OCS makes sense/cents or not.

That's right. Somehow with one comment about how we don't need an on campus football stadium in my earlier post about firing Gregory this has become a football thread, not a fire Gregory thread anymore. Please try to keep up. (See, I have a sense of humor too but those that know me have never doubted that).

"ever hear of brevity"? Aren't you the one that said "let me dumb it down for you"? And now you want brevity. Next time I"ll use small words and lots of pictures for you since you appear to NEED things dumbed down.

You said "we passed them (UCF) by and rocked them to the core." Didn't that happen while USF was playing at RayJay? Thanks for making my point. We can and did have success without playing on campus. You think the UCF "wins followed" because they built a new stadium? No, I'm sure they wouldn't have won any games if they still played in the Citrus Bowl (which was nowhere near as nice as RayJay - no comparison). LOTS of schools HAD TO HAVE a remodeled or new stadium and it didn't help their records one bit. Same with the NFL. And many didn't see an appreciable increase in attendance and those that did lost it within 3-5 years if their records didn't improve. YOu also said "sports are a BUSINESS". Thanks for pointing that out. Playing professionally for several years somehow I missed that. We're talking about COLLEGE sports here, namely football and basketball. And by the way, outside of about a dozen colleges ALL colleges lose money on their sports programs including USF and UCF so it's really hard to say they are running a business. If so they'd be out of business by now because they'd be bankrupt. Interesting that you picked "the swamp" for your example. A school that sells out 'The Swamp" when they have great teams and win championships but loses fans and GIVES AWAY tickets when they aren't dong well. And just to be up front and honest here, I've been to far more games at the Swamp over the years than USF games. Remember, I'm not a USF Alumni so I don't feel I HAVE to go to USF games. Plus, I entertain clients at games and a good/great team or game ALWAYS trumps a mediocre or even good game. Think about that. THe Swamp is 3 hours away and in the BUSINESS world my clients have indicated they would much rather go to a Florida game than a USF game. And pretty much none of my clients are Florida Alumni either. In fact when Florida was dominant a few years back and winning national championships I had clients more interested in going to Gainesville than watching the Bucs play locally. RayJay tops The Swamp across the board so it's not about the facilities or the location thereof. It's the trade off between time spent (not money because I pay for everything) vs entertainment received. WINNING. I'm not onboard with the OCS because I personally think it's a distraction from the bigger issue. Let me ask you this (and be honest). If USF was playing like UF played a few years back when they were winning or contending for national championships and RayJay was PACKED (which it would be because people are fickle and will jump on the bandwagon when a team is winning) would anyone really be clamoring for an OCS which would definitely be smaller than RayJay? And I realize that comparing USF in the Big East / AAC is different than comparing UF in the SEC but you decided to use UF as an example so I think it's fair to continue that comparison.

Do you really think USF didn't get invited to the BIg 12 because they don't have a stadium on campus? As someone else pointed out USF has the worst combined record in D1 football and basketball over the past year and I think they said the 2nd worst record in D1 over the past 2 years. Nobody wants to be associated with that. Not the Big 12, not the fans, not the alumni. That's why they don't go to the B ball games and why attendance at F ball is falling. If USF had a 1 or 2 loss season each year and a marque victory over a BIG opponent every other year over the past 5 years in F ball and a "decent" B ball team they would have been the 4th invite to the Big 12. In fact, the opportunity for Big 12 teams to get to play in RayJay would probably be looked at as a positive. I can personally tell you that I know lots of opposing players look forward to playing at RayJay when they come here. It's a pro stadium and that's where they all want to go, pro. And to the poster that questioned whether I'm really a fan. Yes I am. What I am not is an Alumni and I think that gives me more objectivity than most people. I didn't go there and I didn't "drink the Kool Aid". I grew up in sports, played at the collegiate level and played at the professional level. My sports history has been a HUGE part of my business success but my two degrees play an even bigger part. The sports history opens doors, the education closes deals. I'm a numbers guy. Data analytics and number crunching is easy for me. Just blessed with that. And I do know the difference between public and private financing and the part of my previous post that discussed banking and the part about building a stadium were addressing two different issues and were in different parts of my post. I was addressing the comment the previous poster made about renting vs owning real estate and how the wealthy only own, not rent. The banking example had nothing to do with stadium financing. I was using it as an example for renting real estate vs owning real estate because everyone has been to a bank and can relate to it. But you already knew that. You're just reaching (poorly I might add) at this point. How about a show of hands here? How many people that have posted on this topic have SEASON football or basketball tickets? How many have BOTH? IF you don't have season tickets did you go to at least half the football home games and half the basketball games? If you have answered NO to every question so far (except the BOTH question) thank you for playing, you can leave now because how can you possibly be a "fan" if you don't support the team? If you answered YES, what would you rather have? A new stadium with the same old results or stay at RayJay and the team actually play better? In the end here's the problem. You have a fan base that has spent years inside RayJay. Yes, the colors are wrong and yes the team "pays rent" but it's a nice place to play. And has anyone actually seen the data for where the season tickets holders come from? I"ve not seen the numbers but I've had someone who is in a position to know tell me. You'll be asking a lot of people to drive farther, through more traffic to go all the way to campus. From the numbers I've seen tossed around the on campus stadium will be much smaller. It may look "fuller" but in the end, the real decision are made based on the hard numbers, the data analytics. Not "does it look fuller". And consider this, what is the number 1 things in all surveys that people like to do at football games (other than win)? Tailgate. I've heard the sports fields including on the south side of campus by Fowler are off limits because there would be too much damage to the surface and they have to be ready for other uses. (I guess they've been to a few of our tailgates). So where does everyone tailgate? I"m not saying it can't be done it's just going to be difficult and I don't know that this is the time. WInning is like a wave, it creates momentum. Just like a surfer rides the momentum of a wave (I surf) USF can ride the momentum of turning the F ball and B ball programs around to build a new stadium (and then a new B ball facility if needed). But I think the winning needs to come first.

You must not be in business. LOTS of businesses choose to rent not own their property. And numerous studies have shown that rich people got rich by owning businesses that allowed them to purchase, not rent, PERSONAL use real estate but that's not what you said. Coming in second was inheriting money but that was usually from parents or grandparents that owned businesses. Just look at the largest companies in America. Now check their financials and you'll see just how much they own vs. rent. It comes down to taxes and the allocation of capital. Rent is 100% deductible, buildings are depreciated over 39 years. Land can not be depreciated AT ALL. The capital that is freed up by renting the real estate instead of owning the real estate can be deployed to other more profitable parts of the business generating higher overall returns. Take banks for example, most don't own their branches, they lease them. That frees up money to make more loans which are much more profitable over the long run resulting in making much more profits / money over time. For crying out loud. You people are arguing with me over building and financing a new stadium and you post comments like that? Am I the only one on here that understands this stuff? I'll tell you what. Go build your stadium. Make sure you personally contribute to it and buy season tickets (or else you are a hypocrite). Play your games against Tulane, E Carolina, UT San Antonio and N Texas and have fun in the Almost A Conference. Then when no one shows up to watch you can complain here all you want. Maybe they used the wrong Bull for a mascot or the wrong shade of green on the stadium. Or the 5th AD in 12 years shoulda, coulda, woulda done this, that or the other. And by the way, Memphis is gone within 2 years (write it down) because they don't want to be in the AAC. Enjoy adding Southwest Missouri State to your conference. I"m sure that will move the needle on the attendance in your new stadium.

Maintence may be "part of the ticket price" but the point I keep trying to make is what makes you think you can sell those tickets in the first place? All fixed and variable costs are part of the sales price of any product but that doens't mean people buy it. And now we're back to attendance. Good attendance at either facility solves your problem and mine. But in the end I think the ONLY thing that will help with attendance is the teams' records and that starts with Coach Scott (who I was against signing but would give him 1 or 2 more years) and Coach Gregory (who I was against signing and would fire him today). The thing I think A LOT of posters on this board are missing is the APATHY among a huge portion of the fan base. A new stadium will move the needle a little. A new coach, different attitude and culture resulting in MORE winning will move the needle a LOT. It always has and always will. Let's do this: Reverse the football and basketball records. Change each teams losses into wins and their wins into losses. Are we even having this conversation? No. Does this thread even exist? No. Now put the records back to where they really are today but build an on campus stadium 5 years ago. Are we having this conversation? No. I think the conversation is "why doesn't anyone go to the games, what idiot decided to spend all of that money on a stadium we didn't need, why did USF cut "this" program or "that" program when they had money to build a new stadium they didn't need". At the end of the day, from my personal playing experience and business experience I can say with absolute certainty that if USF was winning that WOULD make a difference. But no one here can say with certainty that building an on campus stadium will accomplish anything. That being said, I think time will tell because in the end I think they will build a stadium.

I'm "fixated on attendance" because in no particular order: 1 It generates revenue, 2 It's a very good gauge of how the program is doing 3 High attendance spills over into other areas including fund raising. 4 High attendance generates a higher level of "game day" excitement. 5 If the team plays on campus like they do now how many students will go? They don't go to MBB games now and those are on campus. Students can attend games at RayJay if they want to but they don't want to. 6. If they don't get decent attendance on campus how do they justify the expense of building a stadium? And from what I've read so far beyond the $5 Mil that they got the other day there hasn't been a lot of people lining up to donate for a new stadium. I would hate to see funds that could be used for education ultimately going to a stadium that isn't needed.

A lot of assumptions there. Remember, when you own it ALL of the YEAR ROUND maintenance costs are your responsibility. Doubt very many people have any idea how much it costs to maintain a stadium, let alone the electric bill for one night game. It's BIG. Build up alumni visiting campus? All because of a new stadium on campus? Let's check back 5 years after it's built and see how that worked out. Proud of? How about a winning record? High graduation rate? Top rated academic programs? I'll take those over a new stadium any day. And I played in some really nice ones.

WIthout giving too much away, I played football at a Big 10 school and professionally so I've played in big stadiums and small. I've played on and against teams that were good and bad. I've played in bowl games and playoff games. I've been around people my whole life that LIVED sports. My nephew is a college basketball coach. That's where most of my basketball KNOWLEDGE comes from as I have very little experience (I played in high school but that's it). After I "retired" I went back to school and got my Master degree. I went to law school but didn't finish as my "day job" became more and more successful along with the time commitments it requires. Being around people most of my life that LIVE sports I've learned a few things. One of them is that people are very much blinded by issues involving "their team". And trust me, it only gets worse if you are on "the team". And in all of my years of playing one thing became very clear. Winning fixes EVERYTHING, especially attendance. If USF was taking names and kicking "ask" and packing them into the third level at RayJay NO ONE would be complaining about where we play. If USF were routinely ranked high and playing in good bowl games things would be very different. But I'm telling you, "if you build it they will come" is nothing but a movie line. "If you win it they will attend it" is the TRUTH when it comes to football and MBB. But at the end of the day, how much attendance do you really expect playing in the AAC? I can't imagine season average attendance much beyond 30 to 40 k in the best case scenario playing in the AAC. USF would have to schedule at least 1 or 2 BIG schools and routinely beat them if they want to get a high ranking and good bowl game that brings with it good attendance. Without that, how many people really will attend USF football games to see AAC opponents whether at RayJay or an on campus stadium?

Money needs to be spent on practice and sports facilities in general, no issues there. If they had not torn down the old Sombrero after they built Ray Jay and that's where USF was playing their games then USF would need it's own stadium. I'm not against spending money when and where it's needed. I just personally think winning would do A LOT more for attendance than a new stadium. And after "the 3 little pigs" leave the AAC and the "irrelevant 6" arrive, I think more people will look at the cost and time of attending football games and opt out, regardless of where the games are played. Same for basketball.

"let me dumb it down for you". No thanks. I don't need to stoop to your level and be dumb. You seem to have already cornered the market on that.

I know Football and MBB are different sports. But the Dome being on campus does NOT help MBB at all. If the team was better people would attend. Same for football in my opinion. Yes, a new stadium will attract the "hey, let's check it out crowd". But if the team still sucks that "goodwill" won't last until the end of the season and people will be complaining about all the empty seats.

How did the best best teams in the AAC do in attendance? I honestly don't know. And don't lose site of the fact that it is the AAC. It's not like someone is packing 60,000+ into their stadium week in and week out. How many were in the stands at the UF game this year? Who you play matters almost as much as how you play. Also, how many times did USF play on a week night? That's a non starter for a lot of people unless you're Bama or someone like that. And lastly, don't forget the HOT weather. It is a factor that a new stadium won't fix unless they build a dome.

This very well WILL happen. There, I fixed it for you. But at least you'll have a new football stadium to look forward to and after that the powers that be will try to convince you that the only thing wrong with the MBB program is the dome which they will want to replace. But in the meantime, just keep renewing those season tickets. Things will get better. JUST TRUST THEM.

The stadium is NOT the problem in Football either. USF plays in an NFL caliber stadium where the SUPER BOWL was played last year. I personally know former players (2 now in the NFL) who LOVED playing at RayJay. Honestly, for a college prospect name ONE stadium in the AAC that is better than RayJay. A small stadium on campus WILL be a step down. If USF had Cincinattii's team and record this year we'd have been selling tickets in the 3rd level at RayJay, I guarantee it.

The situations are not different. How would things have been different with Coach Strong if we were sitting in a new stadium watching that crap? How would they be different today if we were sitting in a new stadium watching the SS that has been the past two years? I could be sitting in the Taj Mahal and if Gregory is still coaching next year I"m out. Same could be said for football. It's expensive, time consuming and HOT to go watch college football in Florida in the fall. The team's record matters more than everything else COMBINED regardless of whether it's FB or MBB.

Seriously? Are you kidding me? "The university will prosper and flourish as we perform tours and Saturday is buzzing with activity"? You must first ask yourself "How many people do we lose when we move from RayJay to USF because they dont want to make the drive?" It's more than you think. Then ask yourself "How many more people will show up for this $h1t Show just because we have a pretty new stadium on campus?" It ain't as many as you think. USF must fix the product they are selling FB and MBB before worrying about new facilities. There are A LOT of schools with better facilities that look like ghost towns because their product sucks too. Why would USF be any different? Oh I forgot, because it's USF. Would a new showroom have saved Yugo? Or FIAT? Or (insert failing / failed car brand with crap for product here) in this country? No. SO just how many more people do think will show up just because they build a new stadium on campus? And how long do you think they will put up with this crap?