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On Campus Stadium Questions Answered


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Yet Another OCS Thread... Okay... To catch up a lot of the newbies...

1. Location

The long range plan for USF has a 'placeholder' for a stadium covering the eastern most parking lots of the Sun Dome. The two western lots (the ones along Maple directly across from the college of business) will be replaced with parking garages. Most campuses with stadiums have parking all across the campus -- so you can expect that when USF builds its OCS, there will be people parking at the College of Medicine and walking across campus.

University Mall is not really an option. It was sold last year to a real estate investment trust, which will look for maximizing it's profit.  While USF is a state school, Florida's eminent domain laws can not be used to purchase property for a football stadium (educational facilities, however, are permitted).  Expect the sale price of the mall to be at least twice the actual construction costs, not to mention the cost of razing the existing structures and clearing the land.  My guess is you'd be looking at somewhere north of $500 million total.  Also... Bear in mind that Sears, Dillards, Macy's, and Burlington Coat Factory all own their locations as well as some parking areas, which could affect any sale of the Mall.

The area north of Fletcher - between the Claw (golf course) and Riverfront Park is owned by USF; however, it is all wetlands. Current environmental regulations would make building the stadium in that location significantly cost prohibitive. It would probably be cheaper to buy the mall.

The area on the southwest part of campus, along Fowler from the University entrance to Bruce B. Down's Blvd, is leased to a public-private partnership to develop the land as a "reasearch park."  It's possible the lease could be changed or amended, but not likely.  While a stadium could fit there, existing development and the lake along Bruce B Downs, where the Botanical Garden is located, would make parking a premium.

The only real place a stadium could fit would be somewhere around the current varsity tennis courts.  To illustrate, I created the image below. I used Google Maps at the same scale and copied Papa Johns stadium at Louisville and pasted it onto the USF campus.  You can see just how big this stadium is, and it only holds 45,000 seats.  I can not see USF building a stadium smaller than Raymond James -- so it will take up just a bit more room than this image holds.

OCS.sized.jpg

2. Alcohol

The Beer/No Beer issue has been handled. Unless the NCAA or the Big East passes a regulation prohibiting the sale of alcohol during games, you can expect USF to sell beer.

3. Design

There are certain things you can expect from a new stadium. The first will be chairbacks, with or without armrests, in a vast majority of the stadium. Yes, metal benches are a heck of a lot cheaper - but fan comfort is a major part of getting and retaining not only season ticket holders, but also the donors needed to help build and operate the facility.  The student sections would probably be bench seating, as students stand anyway.

Side note: My father went to Michigan State which has bench seating.  They would add 1-2 tickets per row for bigger games, allowing them to sell more seats.  Of course the benches didn't get longer, so people would have to squeeze in.  And sections started in the middle of a bench, not along the aisles like we have at Ray Jay.

As noted above, the stadium would probably be designed as big, or bigger, than Ray Jay.  Probably 70,000 or more.

Finally, the stadium design will probably include a lot of the creature comforts of Raymond James stadium - club levels, suite levels, a large number of bathrooms and concession stands, etc. To attract and retain ticket buyers, going to the stadium has to be more than just the game on the field.

4. Finances

A decent stadium will cost around $200 to $250 million. Unlike RayJay, USF can not expect any taxpayer dollars to help. So the funds need to come from either private donations or the sale of bonds or a combination of the two.

With some simplified math, at a 6% interest rate, the bonds for a $200 million stadium would cost around $1.2 million per month or just under $14.4 million per year. (In contrast, rent at Raymond James is only about $1 million per year).

If we assume that ticket sales and annual donations fund the operation of the program (coaches salaries, travel costs, etc), then the debt service needs to come from new sources. Naming rights can bring in $2 to $3 million per year. Additional advertising sales, luxury box rent, parking fees, and concessions can bring in several million more per year.

It would appear that, without dedicating a portion of ticket sales or annual donations to debt service, affording an OCS becomes difficult. For every $10 million in private donations - or cost reductions through design changes - the funds needed each year is reduced by around $700,000. USF might need to raise at least half of the construction money before the first shovel of dirt is moved.

5. Timing

I would not expect USF to even consider building a stadium until the lower bowl is sold out for an entire year - that would mean a season of averaging more than 41,000 tickets sold. I would also add that at least 25,000 or more of those will probably need to be season tickets - and those season tickets might need to be held by more than 10,000 season ticket holders. (Currently USF has less than 4,000 season ticket holders buying around 16,000 season tickets and averages around 30,000 tickets sold).

When will these benchmarks be achieved? My guess is around 2010. At that point, USF will appoint a stadium committee to first conduct an up-to-date feasibility study. Then the committee will spearhead a capital campaign to raise private donations. Once the committee reaches its goal, USF will seek permission to sell bonds for the construction. That should be sometime in 2012 or 2013. The stadium would then be open for the 2014 or 2015 season.

So, in my opinion, the OCS will be built around 5 years after we sell out the lower bowl for an entire season. 

Okay, so I am leaving my original thoughts on this topic....

I am unsure of timing because I do not currently know the status of USF's lease with the Tampa Sports Authority.  The last reported signed lease was for five years through 2012 (I think) with an option for five more and a two-year notice to break the lease.  However, that was prior to the brouhaha around the ACC Championship game.  This five-five-two lease did not give USF any sway on scheduling of other events at Ray Jay during football season.  Because of the ACC controversy, TSA offered USF the option in exchange for a longer lease (10 years I think).  I do not recall if the longer lease was signed.

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Great reply, Jim. That was the most comprehensive answer I've heard in reference to the OCS issue. You pretty much gleaned all the information that's been tossed around during all the OCS discussions and put into a pretty comprehensive reply.

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Very nice post and thanks for the information.

I agree 100% with having to sellout the lower bowl for an entire season before any offiicals start talking about an OCS.

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Yet Another OCS Thread... Okay... To catch up a lot of the newbies...

1.  Location

The long range plan for USF has a 'placeholder' for a stadium covering the eastern most parking lots of the Sun Dome.  The two western lots (the ones along Maple directly across from the college of business) will be replaced with parking garages.  Most campuses with stadiums have parking all across the campus -- so you can expect that when USF builds its OCS, there will be people parking at the College of Medicine and walking across campus.

University Mall is not really an option because Glimcher, the current owner of the mall, is selling the Mall as part of a two-mall package.  Despite the clientele and location issues, University Mall remains highly profitable for both Glimcher and the individual stores therein.  Bear in mind that Sears, Dillards, Macy's, and Burlington Coat Factory all own their locations as well as some parking areas, which could affect any sale of the Mall.

The area north of Fletcher - between the Claw (golf course) and Riverfront Park is owned by USF; however, it is all wetlands.  Current environmental regulations would make building the stadium in that location significantly cost prohibitive.  It would probably be cheaper to buy the mall.

2. Alcohol

The Beer/No Beer issue has been handled.  Unless the NCAA or the Big East passes a regulation prohibiting the sale of alcohol during games, you can expect USF to sell beer.

3. Design

There are certain things you can expect from a new stadium.  The first will be chairbacks, with or without armrests.  Yes, metal benches are a heck of a lot cheaper - but fan comfort is a major part of getting and retaining not only season ticket holders, but also the donors needed to help build and operate the facility.

You can also expect that a USF OCS will be bigger than UCF's 40K seat stadium.  Yes, building in phases would be possible -- but I would expect the initial stadium design to hold around 50,000 people.

Finally, the stadium design will probably include a lot of the creature comforts of Raymond James stadium - club levels, suite levels, a large number of bathrooms and concession stands, etc.  To attract and retain ticket buyers, going to the stadium has to be more than just the game on the field.

4. Finances

A decent stadium will cost around $150 million.  Unlike RayJay, USF can not expect any taxpayer dollars to help.  So the funds need to come from either private donations or the sale of bonds or a combination of the two.

With some simplified math, at a 6% interest rate, the bonds would cost around $900,000 per month or just under $11 million per year.  (In contrast, rent at Raymond James is $720,000 only per year).  

If we assume that ticket sales and annual donations fund the operation of the program (coaches salaries, travel costs, etc), then the debt service needs to come from new sources.  Naming rights can bring in $2 to $3 million per year.  Additional advertising sales, luxury box rent, parking fees, and concessions can bring in several million more per year.

It would appear that, without dedicating a portion of ticket sales or annual donations to debt service, affording an OCS becomes difficult.  For every $10 million in private donations - or cost reductions through design changes - the funds needed each year is reduced by around $700,000.  USF might need to raise at least half of the construction money before the first shovel of dirt is moved.

5. Timing

I would not expect USF to even consider building a stadium until the lower bowl is sold out for an entire year - that would mean a season of averaging more than 41,000 tickets sold.  I would also add that at least 25,000 or more of those will probably need to be season tickets - and those season tickets might need to be held by more than 10,000 season ticket holders. (Currently USF has less than 4,000 season ticket holders buying around 16,000 season tickets and averages around 30,000 tickets sold).

When will these benchmarks be achieved?  My guess is around 2010.  At that point, USF will appoint a stadium committee to first conduct an up-to-date feasibility study.  Then the committee will spearhead a capital campaign to raise private donations.  Once the committee reaches its goal, USF will seek permission to sell bonds for the construction.  That should be sometime in 2012 or 2013.  The stadium would then be open for the 2014 or 2015 season.  

So, in my opinion, the OCS will be built around 5 years after we sell out the lower bowl for an entire season.

Just some things to consider.

That's an amazing statement, and you hit it right on the head.  That's exactly, bond debt and everything, that USF VP's have told me.  Nice post

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Jim,

I still am unclear where you stand on those issues.......J/K

Now that's a well thought out reply and extremely educational!!!

As always, GO BULLS!!!

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In fact, I would add that post from Jim to some type of either

1) hall of fame

2) a place where everyone can read the facts before talking OCS talk....

mods?

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I concur. Either HOF and/or paste his entry to the top of the main board with the subject heading "On Campus Stadium? READ HERE."

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In fact, I would add that post from Jim to some type of either

1) hall of fame

2) a place where everyone can read the facts before talking OCS talk....

mods?

I agree, that was a great post. Put it at the top where everyone who has thoughts of posting about an OCS can read it. You answered practicaly every question I had on the issue.

I have to say Jim, with posts like that and all of the quantified stats, scores, and schedules you post, you bring a lot of valuable info to this board.

Thanks!!

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JIm, thanks for the update on this.  Helps the layman like me, when these threads start up every other day.

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This thread is being locked because we don't need it to turn into a discussion about an OCS

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